Finally, the transcript of Chris Rosebrough’s interview of Jonathan Cahn last year. This was a great interview and Pastor and Messianic Rabbi Jonathan Cahn was given an opportunity to cover a lot of ground here, and clear up the air about The Harbinger and all of the false things that were said about the book by its critics. This is why I wrote The Truth About The Harbinger so that there would be a book out there that would help set the record straight. Currently my book is the ONLY answer in print which provides the biblical answer and response to almost every charge, accusation, fallacy, false witness, evil report, and lie that was said and aired publicly on radio and printed in the form of a book, and was posted and remains on the Internet without repentance, without retraction, without correction, without any sign of reconciliation or remorse by any single person who was involved in this horrendous public reproach and persecution of a Christian Evangelical by other Christian Evangelicals in my lifetime. This part of one of a several articles I’m working on, and Lord willing, will post on my website, as I work to wind down my involvement with this controversy to defend the truth against the lies, and bring to light the great sin which will precede the great persecution of Christians in this nation by others who claim to profess the same faith, but who disagree and use their public platforms to denigrate them in the name of Jesus Christ. The coming persecution will not be one which can be easily identified, but has already begun from within the body. It is called discernment, and it is the most horrendous misuse of Christian Apologetics I have ever witnessed in thirty-seven years of walking in God’s grace. It will provide the theological framework of the coming persecution that will manifest itself in this land and throughout the world. It has already begun.
THE PEPSTER
As a man thinks within himself, so he is.
Proverbs 23:7a
The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the Lord.
Proverbs 16:33
"Do not petition G-d to go where you are going; rather find where G-d is going and travel with Him."-- Unknown Jewish Wise Man
"I shall pass through this world but once. Any good therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to any human being, let me do it now. Let me not defer not neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.".--- William Penn
"It’s not failure, but the fear of failure that stops most people.”-- Philip Anschutz
"THERE IS NOTHING MORE FRIGHTENING THAN ACTIVE IGNORANCE." -- Goethe
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Unknown Author
“I have learned that success is to be measured not so much by the position one has reached in life, as by the obstacles that he has overcome while trying to succeed.” – Booker Taliaferro Washington, 1856 – 1915
“ A chief event of life is the day in which we have encountered a mind that startled us. ”— Ralph Waldo Emerson
"Truth is in history, but history is not the truth." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila
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On Wednesday, September 4th, 2013, Chris Rosebrough interviews Jonathan Cahn on his Fighting For the Faith radio program in a broadcast titled The Dark Side of Discernment, where each of the charges against Rabbi Jonathan is discussed and biblically examined, and shown to be entirely spurious and without foundation. This was perhaps one of the best interviews on The Harbinger aired in 2013, perhaps ever. It was fair, it was balanced, and it was friendly and cordial as befitting two Christian brethren, and the truth was spoken in the love of Christ with no malice and no false witness.
[Chris Rosebrough’s introduction heard over music] “It’s time (pause) For another edition of Fighting For the Faith. (pause) Wednesday, September 4th, 2013. (pause) No joke. I think this is the most important hour of radio I have ever recorded.” (pause) Details .. shortly. (long pause with music) Thank you for tuning in; you’re listening to Fighting For the Faith; my name is Chris Rosebrough – I am your servant in Jesus Christ, this is the program that dishes up a daily dose of biblical discernment – the goal of which is – help you to think biblically, help you to think critically, help you compare what people are saying in the name of God to the Word of God – no shortage of crazy things being said out there. We slow down and stop and listen to what people are saying with our Bibles opened. One of the new slogans I really like for our program is “Don’t ever listen to Fighting For the Faith with an open mind. Never. Always listen with an open Bible.’
“Now at the opening of the program, I said today’s episode of Fighting For the Faith is probably – in fact – I kna – you know – I’m convinced it’s the most it is the most important hour of radio I have recorded in my five-year career of, uh doing Fighting For the Faith. Today’s program will be controversial. It’s gonna be controversial for two reasons; we’re going to be talking about something that well, uhmmm.. not a lot of people are talking about, at least openly. There’s a lot of people talking about it behind the scenes. There’s a problem that needs to be dis–discussed. (pause) And unfortunately sin often thrives when sin exists in the dark. So what we’re gonna do today, is we’re going to turn on the lights. Umm and, I say ‘we,’ because the other reason why this program is going to be controversial is because I’ve invited somebody on the program who is umm, let’s just say, not somebody who is well-liked within the ‘discernment community,’ and that is – well – putting it lightly. That’s an understatement. I’ve invited back on the program Jonathan Cahn; the author of the bestselling book, The Harbinger. (pause) If you remember, last year there was a big kerfuffle – a big flap – there was a lot of controversy regarding The Harbinger. And there was a lot of people – umm – in the ‘discernment world’ who – I hate to say this – were flat out slandering, lying about, gossiping and tale-bearing, and not speaking the truth about Jonathan Cahn. It’s one thing to engage somebody’s ideas, it’s another thing to accuse them of something that they have never done, or never said, or never believed, or never taught; and use that to demonize a person. (pause) So today we’re going to be talking about the dark side of discernment. I do this from time to time here at Fighting For the Faith, and it’s been awhile and probably overdue that I’ve had an in depth discussion of this problem. Now I want you to understand something here; normally at Fighting For the Faith I name names, I play sound bites, so that you can hear them in context. Today, I’m not going to name names; nobody, nobody – not one single person who does discernment will be named by name on this program, because it’s not about a particular person or persons, it’s about a particular technique. (pause) And so, umm, without any further ado, here is my interview recorded earlier today with Jonathan Cahn.”
The Pre-Recorded Interview
[Chris Rosebrough] “Alright, on the line I have Jonathan Cahn, the author of The Harbinger. This is his second time appearing on Fighting For the Faith. Jonathan Cahn, umm, ma shlomcha yom?” (How are you today?)
[Jonathan Cahn] “Tovah od tabata – doing good. How are you doing good?”
[Chris Rosebrough] “Doing really good. I want to thank you for coming on Fighting For the Faith, umm, knowing that today’s topic could really, truly, be a controversial topic; but our goal is not to attack any one person, but instead to talk about a particular problem that exists within the wider “wild west world” of online “discernment,” and ah, the sins that are occurring there.
Umm, last year when The Harbinger came out, there was a lot of scuttlebutt and kerfuffle regarding your book The Harbinger. And ah, last year, you came on the program and we had a great conversation about yer–your book; I took the time to read it, and in our interview – obviously – you and I have very different opinions about how to handle Isaiah and that portion of the book, but the one thing I truly found as a merit; there is a very clear presentation of Christ and Him crucified for our sins and salvation only in Jesus Christ – and I credited you with that. And since that time, you and I have corresponded a few times, and communicated with each other, and although we disagree with each other on a few things, we still have a cordial friendship; and because you preach such ah – ah a correct Gospel, I have no choice to but believe that you’re my brother, and have no problem with that, thanks for coming on the air.”
[Jonathan Cahn] “My blessing. And it was ah, it was a blessing to talk with you. I – I respected it. There was – you know – no problem with – you know – with discussing things – you know – tha–that’s the way it really should be, I think throughout the whole...”
[Chris Rosebrough] “Right. Now, eh – eh, the e-mails that we exchanged lately, we’ve talked about ah, kind of a general problem, and – and the thing I like about it is that we’re not talking about it in the abstract; we’re talking about what you experienced after you published the book, The Harbinger. Now, grr-granted, ah – you know – anybody who publishes anything or says anything publicly is – is open to criticism. I receive lots of critical e-mails for the work that I do at Fighting For the Faith, umm, but what happened to you is beyond just – you know – somebody taking issue with something that you said, or something that you wrote, but instead it – it rose to a different level – it rose to the level where there – there were all kinds of charges brought against you made – umm – by different types of people with different types of mediums – umm – these charges were completely basely, and I want to talk about some of these things, and give you the opportunity to tell the story so that we can address the underlying false tactics that were employed, and the result of what those tactics brought; because I – I mean, I’m a firm believer that if somebody has umm, misapplied a passage of Scriptures – has misread it, or misinterpreted it, or hasn’t rightly handled it, it’s fair game to say, “Listen, I don’t think that’s what this passage says; here’s proper hermeneutics, here’s what the passage says in context,” and you know – offer ah a remedy; but that’s – that’s one thing. But it’s a completely other thing for me to say, “Well, umm, you know, Rabbi Cahn, because I disagree with you hermeneutics on this, therefore that gives me the right to say, ‘I think I saw you, umm – you know – ah – ah – on a dark street corner next to John Shelby Spong. And – and I really think that because you two were in the same vicinity as each other that somehow means that you’re probably in cahoots with him, and part of some liberal agenda or something. Ya–You know what I’m saying?” (laughs at the absurdity of the thought)
[Jonathan Cahn] “Yes; I do – I do know very well, yeah, and – and I experienced everything, including – you know – including also – you know – the really misreading of what The Harbinger, it was saying, and – and or and or the non–reading of what it was saying, and then still coming up with crazy – you know – charges that – you know – that I think many times are – are more reflective of the people making the charges than the objective reality.”
[Chris Rosebrough] “Right. Let’s take a look at some of these accusations. You were accused of teaching Replacement Theology.”
[Jonathan Cahn] “Yeah – and – and yeah – the other thing Chris is, I – you know – we expected the kind of the opposition from the secular realm – you know – what we didn’t expect is what happened with some in the discernment realm, and I also want to say that a lot in the discernment realm have ah – you know – been – you know – some of the strongest champions of The Harbinger. But – yeah – the first one, re – the first one that hit me was Replacement Theology. I was actually on the phone, I was doing a radio interview, and someone e-mailed in that they had heard this – this charge on the radio made that I was advocating Replacement Theology. I literally – I – I mean – you know – my reaction was laughing at first, because I couldn’t believe, it just didn’t seem real, umm and – basically, it was umm – you know – two brothers – umm – on the air, well actually perhaps three different broadcasts, but the charge it was – umm – that I was advocating that God was finished with the Jewish people, and to, because – you know – of ah – showing a parallel between what’s happening in modern times and biblical record of Israel, and particularly in what’s happening in the apostasy of America, (Chris Rosebrough is heard on the mike grumbling in ascent) that meant that I was saying that God was finished with Israel; He has no more plans for Israel; that that’s what I was trying to do, umm – and this – ah, you know – this kind of morphed into I’m advocating British Israelism, and all sorts of things. Ah, and – you know – the – the evidence was again because I drew parallels or – or – or spoke of parallels being drawn regarding America. And – you know – and one of the reason was said that I spoke of the destruction of ancient Israel, but didn’t speak of the rebirth in 1948. And – you know – so well, just to answer this, first of all I’m a Messianic Jew. I’m a pastor of a Messianic congregation which is called Beth Israel. You know, and, which meets at place, the center is called the Jerusalem Center – you know – I preach against Replacement Theology continuously, and we are strong supporters of Israel, and – you know – I mean – you know – the countless I’m teaching of God’s promises to Israel, in fact even in our Statement of Faith – you know – in our basic statement of faith; umm – we put in there, even though it’s not – you know – an issue of salvation, we do put in that God is presently is not finished with Israel, that He will fulfill – fulfill all of His promises, historically, literally – you know – as written in the Bible. (Chris Rosebrough affirms audibly, “right.”) Anyone - anyone who knows me would just be laughing at this, but it just – it just went on several public radio broadcasts all over that I’m into Replacement Theology; that I’m advocating it.”
[Chris Rosebrough] “So, ok, so ok; now maybe I’m “old school” here, but Journalism; before you can run with a story in Journalism, you actually have to – you know – make sure that your sources are solid, and – and complete. What you’re actually saying that because an argument from SILENCE? – rather than from anything that you’ve actually affirmatively said? You know, ah, in fact, in spite of everything that you’ve actually affirmatively said; somebody came to the conclusion, and continued to actually speak lies about you? – that you teach Replacement Theology, when you can go point to the record and go to your sermons and say – and your website and say – “Not only do I not teach Replacement Theology, here’s me preaching against it; why didn’t you do your homework, and ah – and – and take this evidenced into consideration?””
[Jonathan Cahn] “Yeah – yeah – I think, well I that’s – that’s – that’s old – that’s Journalism, that’s correct. Unfortunately some of standards of – of the world in Journalism are not - you know – are not applied in the kingdom, and are – are not applied – I mean – you know – some standards that even – you know – gossip magazines have to go by legally, umm, are – are higher than sometimes what’s done in the kingdom. That’s the problem. Umm, no, - you know – it’d be very easy for someone to just simply to “Google” me, and very, very quickly they’d see that I’m umm strongly advocating that God is not finished with Israel. I mean that – I mean, it’s – it’s basic, but they didn’t – apparently never happened. (Chris Rosebrough is heard, “hmm.”) Umm, and – you know – and I think this points to a – you know – one of the problems and one of the – you know – you can say – illnesses in – in some in the discernment mo–movement, and that is that, there is a jumping to – you know – find evil, or a jumping to (Chris Rosebrough is heard affirming, “Right.”), “Hey, we got something here, and this is it.” (Chris Rosebrough’s heard again saying, “Right.”) “And – you know – we have our category of things we’re against, and hey, but – you know – but, I saw – you know – he didn’t mention Israel coming back.” Well that’s not what The Harbinger’s about. I – I’ve done plenty of messages about that, but that’s not what The Harbinger is about. (Chris Rosebrough is heard affirming, “Right.”) And, but he did mention that there is a parallel with America, and therefore, well, you know – Replacement Theology – which Replacement Theology is basically saying that the church is replaces Israel. You know – so, you know – you know – and the other thing, I would say at least three broadcasts, which – which has also spread throughout the Internet; spread all over; ah, later on, in fair – you know I – I said – I said, “Listen guys, you have to give me a chance to address this,” and there was some chance, and that was good, umm, but at that point, it was that – you know – when – when I brought this up, the – the ones that ultimately say that – and it was never, it was never, umm – you know – this was done publicly, this was done – you know – on – on the airwaves, and it – it spread to the Internet; but it wasn’t – but also the other part, there was no real repentance publicly that, “Hey, we did stuff – we said something wrong. It’s not right,” (Chris Rosebrough is heard affirming, “ahumm”) “And we are – we’re correcting this; he is not into that at all, and this is wrong,” but that didn’t happen.”
[Chris Rosebrough] “Right. Now if the New York Times had written an article about Jonathan Cahn’s theology, and falsely or – you know – what for whatever reason, got it wrong, and in that article had – had reported that you teach Replacement Theology, and you contacted the New York Times, and said, “Hey, umm, not only do I not teach Replacement Theology; here’s sermons where I preach against it,” umm – the New York Times journalistic standards in – boy, I hate to have to appeal to something like that, because you would think the Christians would have higher standards than something like the New York Times. Umm – but the New York Times would then actually issue a retraction and a correction. I mean, as somebody’s who’s been reading newspapers for all of my adult life, I’ve seen quite a number of retractions and corrections in major newspapers across the globe. Umm – but, what you’re saying is that despite (Jonathan Cahn is heard saying, “Right.”) the fact that these people were told that you do not teach Replacement Theology, and provided the evidence to show that you do not prea – ah, teach Replacement Theology; they never said they’re sorry, (Jonathan Cahn is heard affirming, “No. No.”) they never asked for your forgiveness, and (Jonathan Cahn is heard saying, “No.”) never corrected the record on their own sites.” (Jonathan Cahn is heard saying, “No.”)
[Jonathan Cahn] No. No, the most – and in fairness to one of them – and the most of when – when they were asked on interview shows again, because of this – of what came up, saying that, “Well, he’s into Replacement Theology,” and then one would say, “Well, you know - not exactly, he said this, but then again,” he’d just put in, “But still, then we think it is functionally Replacement Theology,” or they’ll go on, umm, but the thing is – you know – that’s about the most of it in fairness, but – you know – the fact is, this was done – I mean – I mean entire segments on this, and there was never an apology. I – I mean there was never, “Hey, this was wrong. It was a mistake. And we retract that. You know – it’s definitely not the case.” (Chris Rosebrough is heard affirming, “Hmm.”) And that – that’s true with most of these things, as we shall see. (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right.”) That was the first thing, yeah.”
[Chris Rosebrough] “Yeah, which – which reminds me Christians are supposed to have a higher standard than even the world. Umm, (Jonathan Cahn is heard saying, “Yeah.”) the last time I checked the Decalogue, there’s a commandment in there that says, “Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor,” and Christians – you know – we don’t just say that – umm – fellow Christians are our neighbors, we say that they are our blood brou–bought brothers in Christ. How much more should we not bear false witness against the brethren; yet alone our neighbors, we’re not – we – nowhere are Christians given the right ah, to – to lie, and bear false witness against their neighbors. What has happened to Christianity that in the name of defending the Gospel, people believe that it’s okay to bear false witness against their neighbor, and not just any neighbor – a Christian brother. I…”
[Jonathan Cahn] “Yeah – well, the other – the – the thing that goes a–along with is that with the group – the majority of the group that was doing this – I say “group” – I don’t mean they’re all together, but the majority had not even read The Harbinger when they declared all-out war against it. I mean, I can – from what we know, one of them read it at the time, and misread it, because they again, thought that it was Replacement Theology and other things; but the majority did not even read it! So to me, was – how do you go on the air and – you know – say things that – I mean – that – and it’s not about me, I mean – nothing’s stop The Harbinger, it’s gone full blast, nothing’s stop anything. But the, that I’ve no – I’ve no – you know – bitterness over the thing, we prayed that’s why we’re on the air; (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “uhmm.”) this affected a lot of people. (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right.”) I mean, how many people have been affected because people went on the air, and said some things cause they – you know they jump to this and they’re talking about people’s reputation; they talking about pastors, they’re talking about ministers, and with just little – you know – a little phrase or a whole segment you can – you know – technically destroy someone’s reputation. (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right.”) And that’s the problem.” (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right.”)
[Chris Rosebrough] “Right. Now, there’s another charge that is brought against you; that in The Harbinger there is no call to salvation. Talk about that.”
[Jonathan Cahn] “Yeah, yeah, this was said” (inaudible) “that” (inaudible) “there, there’s no altar call, there’s no salvation. Ah, And, and the basis of this; basically, I didn’t say certain words, like ‘Christ,’ didn’t say ‘cross,’ or didn’t say ‘resurrection,’ and didn’t mention the Second Coming’ – was actually said in this thing. ahm…and Now, now, let… to me… Now at, at the same time you had plenty of pastors and people in the discernment ah, community who said this was the strongest calls to salvation they’d ever read.” (Rosebrough affirms in the background, as Pastor Cahn continues) “So,” (inaudible) “The thing is… First of all; a-a lot of… a lot of books – Christian books, even in the discernment co-community, do not even have a chapter fully on salvation. The Harbinger has an entire chapter…” (Rosebrough affirms with an ehem, as Pastor Cahn continues) “And that…the entire chapter is to draw someone who doesn’t believe to give the reasons to believe why they have to have the Savior – a Savior die for them, and to be saved from hell. You know. And, so the point of that… Well, first of all; as a Jewish believer with Gent…We can mention ‘cross’ – the Bible actually says ‘Stauros’ (σταυρός), which means ‘stand,’ you know; but you know that’s…it’s kind of like… O-Once I didn’t use the word ‘Christ’ – well, I used the word ‘Yeshua’ – I said ‘Jesus’ – (Rosebrough heard in the background concurring) “You know, you know; it’s kind of crazy to focus on that,’ (Rosebrough affirms with a “right.”) “but then…” (stutters) “And it does mention … and meaning the overcoming of death… the point of the whole chapter – I mean most people – you know – in America – and most people reading this, know of…that Jesus died, and the Gospel is saying that He rose; but the point of the chapter is to win someone over who doesn’t believe. And that is… that goes to the length of a…you now… argue of… why we are all sinners, why – you know – we are all under judgment, why there is an infinite gap between – between, you know – God’s righteousness and our unholiness; which is, which leads us to hell, and only God Himself can bridge that gap by the sacrifice of His life.” (Rosebrough affirms with an ehem, as Pastor Cahn continues) I mean, so you know, the whole chapter is going through that.”
[Chris Rosebrough] interrupts here, and says, “Sounds like the Gospel to me. I want to interject here. It makes me wonder if – if these people would be consistent. You know; based on what you’re saying here – I mean when I read the Book of Acts – I mean in fact, this is one of the books I’m working on in my own translation of the Bible right now – one of the things that strikes me is that the Apostle Peter doesn’t give the exact same Gospel presentation in two – twice. Okay?” (Rabbi Cahn is heard replying, “Yes” in the background)
[Chris Rosebrough] continues, “Paul’s presentation of the Gospel has marked differences in its approach as well. There’s certain things that are in common between them, and a lot of things that are very different. If they” (The Harbinger’s critics) “applied the same standards to the Apostle Paul and the Apostle Peter, would these men be able to be..ah… charged with not… having a clear call to salvation?”
[Jonathan Cahn] “Absolutely, and – and absolutely. It’s kind of like saying – you’re going up to somebody; you’re witnessing, and you say, ‘Listen, God loves you, you know – Jesus died for your sins,’ and – you know – therefore it wasn’t the Gospel, or some false gospel, because you didn’t – you didn’t go through everything at that moment. Umm, that’s the whole point, and – you know – instead of saying, “Hey, most books don’t have even an entire chapter calling someone to salvation… and umm, if it’s not the exact same way, and it’s exactly right. The fact is if you applied a lot of these ‘standards’ to Paul – if some of these people were around the time of Paul – or many of, I mean, and Matthew –and many things; they would be crucified…Or, or under these kinds of standards. The other thing is that one of these brothers – and I’m calling all of these my brothers – was on the… was on a program and he was saying there’s no – not a salvation call, and as he’s saying it, at the end; the host has a salvation call, and doesn’t specifically say ‘Jesus rose,’ doesn’t specifically say any of the things – doesn’t specifically say anything of the things, and nothing was said at all.”
[Chris Rosebrough] interjects, laughing, and says the following: “In other words, there’s a – they apply a double standard. A standard that doesn’t apply to them that they hold you to.”
[Jonathan Cahn] “There’s a double standard continuously. I mean – you know there is – ah, you know, example – you know – wow; there so much examples, but yes that’s another problem, is a double standard – which is for instance, I was on a radio – on a television program – you know, an entire segment was done condemning me for being on the program; the point of me being on the program – my view is, I am trying to get the Gospel out to and get the call of salvation, repentance out to as many people as possible. Doesn’t mean I endorse everything or anything about the – the host or the interviewer of any show that I’ll be on. But the point is that someone very close to those people” (the critics of The Harbinger) “went on same show, they said nothing. I mean, so…there is a double standard continuously.”
[Chris Rosebrough] “Yeah, well-well, let’s talk about that too, because you–you–you’ve talked a little bit there; you’ve hinted at a concept of guilt by association. Now I want to make something perfectly clear, by coming on today’s episode of Fighting For the Faith did I require you to sign a declaration basically saying that I agree with and subscribe to the doctrines as laid out by the Lutheran Church in the – in the 1570 of the Book of Concord?”
[Jonathan Cahn] “Yeah you – yes you did, but you were the only one who required that.” (Chris Rosebrough is heard laughing in the background, as Jonathan Cahn continues) “No. Of course not. Of course not. That’s the whole point. Of course not. I mean, if I’m going to go on any secular show, I’m not going to agree – I certainly don’t’ agree with where they’re at, or what the station does.” (Rosebrough is heard in the background saying, “Right” as Rabbi Cahn continues.) “And even with Christian – I don’t necessarily agree – you know – I might not agree, I may not agree with anything; I might agree with some things – you know – the point is; what I’m presenting is what I’m presenting, and this goes back to – you know, you know – what would they had done. What if there was ah, ah a television program called Mar’s Hill? And it was run by pagans? And they had all sorts of New Age stuff on it? (Chris Rosebrough is heard laughing in the background, as Jonathan Cahn continues) And I’m appearing? Well, Paul appeared at Mar’s Hill. (Rosebrough is heard in the background saying, “Right” as Rabbi Cahn continues.) “And he certainly preached the Gospel, but-but, know the fact is he would have been crucified for that among some people. That fact that, look by going on there, I don’t care what he says – by going on there he’s giving this legitimacy and condoning all these pagan practices. (Rosebrough is heard in the background saying, “Right” as Rabbi Cahn continues.) “Well, Paul said that’s not the case. ‘I will go everywhere I can to get the Gospel.”
[Chris Rosebrough] replies, “Yeah, and at Acts seven – stutters – seventeen makes it clear that the whole purpose of that Mar’s Hill meeting – these guys like just to get together and discuss anything ‘new’ – I mean that was their big deal. And, and so – so – you know – by Paul appearing at Mar’s Hill, does that somehow mean he was endorsing, ‘O we have to talk about this new stuff all of the time? You know; NO.”
[Jonathan Cahn] And of course not, and yeah, and he – the – the point was, you know, Paul’s thing was to reach the people who needed the Gospel.” (Rosebrough is heard in the background saying, “Right” as Rabbi Cahn continues.) “And so, if we go on forums where everybody agrees with us, we’re not doing it either. And the thing is, you know – when I speak of The Harbinger, I mean the message, the ultimate messages of repentance – I know that’s always there, (Rosebrough is heard in the background saying, “yeah” as Rabbi Cahn continues.) – “the whole context is – I mean – the judgment of sin and the ultimate answer is the cross of Jesus.” Rosebrough is heard in the background saying, “Right” as Rabbi Cahn finishes by saying, “That – that’s the point.”
[Chris Rosebrough] interrupts: “Let me make one more point and we’ll move on to the next accusation, and that is, and that is the Pharisees actually used the “guilt by association argument against Jesus. What they said about Him, they said, ‘He hangs out with, He – He eats with sinners and tax collectors.’ That was a guilt by association argument. And you know what? I am so thankful that Jesus eats with tax collectors and sinners.” Rabbi Cahn is heard in the background saying,“Yeah” as Chris Rosebrough continues saying, “Because I am one. And Jesus said that He came for the sick ;He came for the lost; He came for sinners. He did not come the righteous; but He came for sinners. So I am really thankful that Jesus took the time to take the hit, to be associated with sinners, because I am one. And – and if - and Jesus said He came for the sick. He came for the lost. He came for sinners. He did not come to call the righteous, but He came to call sinners. So I am really thankful that Jesus took the time to take the hit to be associated with sinners, because – I – am – one.”
[Jonathan Cahn] “Yeah, and the – the very fact that He came to earth is – is the beginning of that. (Rosebrough affirms with a “right.”) If it wasn’t that, there would be no Gospel, (Rosebrough affirms with a “right.”) because He would never be here. And you know – there’s so much, I mean, there are things that I read on some of these sites that said, ‘Look, Jonathan Cahn is endorsing a certain book,’ which I’ve never endorsed – you know, but because someone in the congregation had used this, and then it wasn’t even talking about the book ‘bout it was about another book written by the sa-same person I had no idea of, but it’s get (unintelligible) one said that this person – you know – that I’m getting my doctrines from people who I – either I was on their show or I don’t even know the people. One person, ah went on the air to say that I’m in secret collusion with Rick Joyner, who I never met in my life. You know, you know, but that’s the craziness of it.”
[Chris Rosebrough] Ok. Next charge, next accusation; you’re a gnostic apparently, umm, umm. (Rabbi Cahn is heard saying flippantly, “Of course, of course,” as Rosebrough continues.) Ah, yeah, (Rabbi Cahn interrupts, saying, “Never met a Jewish Gnostic.”) “What – what was all the evidence that proved this charge of Gnosticism?”
[Jonathan Cahn] “Yeah, this came out in one of the websites, and you know, whole article on how I’m really advocating Gnosticism. Why? Because of things I use the words ‘mystery,’ or ‘keys,’ or speak of – you know – ‘revelation,’ umm, you know, the problem with this is – and this actually – actually came up with more than one person – the problem with this is (unintelligible) have such a narrow view that – you know, these are words that are used in the Bible, and the fact that a word can be abused – and this is another form of ‘guilt by association’ – because a word can be used by people who are into eastern religion or New Age, or Atheism, whatever; it doesn’t mean – you know (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right.”) – the word is sinful – you know. (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right.”) Otherwise, we have to call the Bible sinful, because it uses the words of ‘mystery’ and ‘keys’ and the revealing (unintelligible) et cetera. (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right.”) Another thing is a matter of looking at another problem – and this is what the Pharisees did, and I’m not talking about any specific person, but the – the principle that because something sounds like something in someone’s head that means, or it’s been used in some way, that means that – you know – you can condemn – go on the air publicly and condemn and link the person to someone else who used the same word (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right.”) which again, you can do with the Bible. Now listen (unintelligible) for that matter, the word ‘God’ is originally a pagan word. (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right.”) some of the word ‘God’ comes from Sanskrit Gutta. Because the words were used by other people before they became used by Christians. (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right.”) The word “Theos” the word “El” was used by the Canaanites, I mean that doesn’t mean the word ‘El’ is pagan – you know…”
[Chris Rosebrough] interrupts: “Right. And I would even point out – you know – just to buttress the point, that – you know – just because somebody uses a word, doesn’t mean that they mean it the same way. For instance, I – I’m a very vocal critic of “the Purpose Driven Movement,” and yet there are passages in the Bible that clearly talk about God’s purposes in the world. I would hate to have to receive criticism from somebody as I was exegeting and teaching through a passage that talks about God’s purposes and be accused of teaching the Purpose Driven – ah – you know, Theology; when I don’t (Jonathan Cahn is heard saying, “Sure,” in the background.) when I – I’m a sharp critic of it. But when I – I – when – you know – the pericope calls for me to teach on that text, I’ve got to teach it rightly, and you use the words that are presented there in the text, and the word ‘purpose’ is right there. (Jonathan Cahn is heard saying, “Yeah!” in the background.) Just because somebody abuses that word doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have a right meaning and use.”
[Jonathan Cahn] “Exactly, and – and that is – you know – this kind of brings the heart of some of – of this – to me this is the opposite of discernment. (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Yeah.”) Discernment is – you know – you have to be able to distinguish between things. You don’t just lump things together. And that’s one of the problems. It’s… To me that’s anti-discernment, in the name of discernment, and – you know (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Yeah.”) the – the – you know – It is absolutely wrong for anyone to – you know – be embracing obviously false doctrine, and to – to – it is right to be called what is false ‘false.’ But at the same time – the same time, to call what is true ‘false’ or to call what is not false ‘false’ is just as bad as people who accept – you know – without thinking, accept things that were false as if they were true. (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Yep.”) It’s the same – it’s the other side of the coin. You know, if I am – I am quickly to jump, as some people are, to accept any new doctrine – you know – that is wrong. But if I am quickly to jump to attack anything that sounds different to me, that’s also (unintelligible stutter) going along the same danger; and that is – it is not discernment. (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Yeah.”) Discernment you have to distinguish; you have to – you have to do your homework, and you have to take the effort to do that (Chris Rosebrough is heard agreeingly grunting, “uhum.”) instead of taking shortcuts, (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Yeah.”) which is done on the other side, and is also done unfortunately in the ‘discernment community.’ I wanna say, listen, there is a good – there is an absolute need for discernment ministry. I would consider myself – you know – I’m – I’m on board, I’ve always preached that. But at the same time, it’s human nature. We can easily go off – go off to the right or to the left.”
[Chris Rosebrough] interrupts: “Right. Right. Okay, let’s bring up this next – next charge. Well it’s kind of like this ‘two in one’ – hahhmmmh - (Jonathan Cahn is heard saying, “Yeah,” in the background.) this – these are bonus here (Jonathan Cahn is heard saying, “Yeah,” in the background.) You are an advocate of Dominionism and – wow – and the – and the Prosperity Heresy.”
[Jonathan Cahn] “Yeah, this was done on the – you know – more than one broadcast, and – you know – and – and has gone beyond that. Ahm, yeah, Dominionism – basically we’re to take over and – you know – dispering (unintelligible) one who does that – and we’re to come victorious and present the world – present the world on a platter to God, (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right.”) and Prosperity can often go along with that – I mean you know – basically God wants us all physically, materially prosperous; well, I preach against these things first of all. But the – the evidence for going on the air and saying that ‘Jonathan Cahn is into that’ – umm is that – you know – that the cause it was taking – it was taking the initial thing that had been said about Replacement Theology, (Chris Rosebrough is heard agreeingly grunting, “uhum.”) and this is how it also spread; people just accept these things from one website to the next, from one program to the next (Chris Rosebrough is heard agreeingly grunting, “uhum.”) and then therefore I’m saying that – you know – America is the new Israel and America is replaced it, and therefore we are to – you know – take over the world, or whatever, umm and that must mean also Prosperity – you know – umm, and – you know – anybody who knows me, obviously know that I – that I preach against these things, and anybody who knows my lifestyle the fact that I would just bring up; on The Harbinger, the back cover, the picture is taken by Sears budget photo. That’s my style. You know, (Chris Rosebrough is heard guffawing loudly) that’s my style. So forget about – forget about Prosperity. You know – umm, you know – if I could drive a used car my whole life I would do it – you know, etcetera – you know, but no; and I’m not – and at the same time – the balance – I’m not saying God doesn’t bless people umm materially, He certainly does, you know, but that is not the focus of our faith, it is not a guarantee of – of God’s people.”
[Chris Rosebrough] “Right. Okay, so you – you haven’t ever asked anybody sow a thousand dollar seed offering into your ministry so that God will bless them and give them a Mercedes Benz, is that what you’re saying here?”
[Jonathan Cahn] “That’s – that’s certainly. Yes, that’s really part of it. Umm, I believe God will bless as we bless, but there is no guarantee of how He blesses, and you know, follow God, He will bl – He will bless you might be in jail for your faith, and God will bless you.”
[Chris Rosebrough] “ Right. Yeah. Okay.”
[Jonathan Cahn] “And also the other thing; with very little exception, it was – you know – these things were not – you know – these were done – and again, it’s not about me, and that’s not why we’re on the air today, it’s about we’re trying – you know – we’re trying to help the people here, and also I don’t know how many countless of people with one statement or another statement, can have their ministries– you know – you know – defamed. But, the thing is that – you know – it was never – there was never a thing of going on the air and saying, ‘Listen, we’re sorry; this is not the case; (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Yeah.”) you know, we – we “jumped the gun. And that is the most Christ-like thing to do for a believer.” (Rosebrough affirms with a “Yep.”) And also we’re wanting people who are into falsehood to repent, then we should be the first to repent if we’ve said something wrong.”
[Chris Rosebrough] “Right. And in fact, umm, (stutters) a few years ago, I had a – ah – a very public falling out with somebody, ah who was in the discernment ah camp. And it – it was a really awful and ugly fight, and the - the fact of the matter is that I was not sinless in that fight, umm, even though I attempted to – you know – to take a principled stand, even I was not consistent with the principles that I wanted to take a stand on; and it – you know – resulted in that friendship completely being obliterated. And only recently – you know – like within the past few days, umm, you know – was I able to reconcile with that person, and – in order to do that, it – it basically meant to swallow my pride and say, ‘You know? I was wrong, and I need to confess what I did wrong, even if it – if that person doesn’t confess what they did wrong.’ I had to take responsibility for my part, and it – it turned out beautifully. And the Gospel was able to bring reconciliation to both of us, and – and that is an important thing. And but what was interesting in having that conversation with this – this lady, is that - you know – in the couple of years that she’s been out of ‘discernment,’ she’s really had a lot of time to reflect and to pray, actually – you know – kind of do some ‘soul searching,’ but at the same time, she’s (stutters) kind of on the back end of ‘discernment,’ able to talk to people who were affected negatively by that type of ‘discernment,’ and she was telling me about one gal who used to be an avid reader to ‘discernment’ websites, and had read a lot of the Puritan ah theological works and stuff, who is a full-blown like ‘New Age’ Spiritist person now. (Jonathan Cahn can be heard saying, “No.”) Umm, and the reason why was because she was so turned off by the hate and vitriol that she was seeing and digesting in these – in many of these ‘discernment camps’ that umm it completely turned her off, and she sought love in – in different spiritual experiences, because she wasn’t seeing it in that – in that group.”
[Jonathan Cahn] “Yeah, yeah; it’s – it’s real important – you know – it’s again, it’s kind of like taking one side that we have to do, and that is to defend the truth, (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Yep.”) against heresy, against falsehood, against – you know – trends that are – can take the Gospel – you know – take the church out of the Gospel. Of course we have to do that. But the – there – there’s another danger there, and the other danger is that we can lift up the sword of truth without the love of God. (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Yep.”) You cannot have the truth of God without the love of God. (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “That’s right.”) That’s what – that’s what they did, that’s how Messiah was crucified. You know – they – you know, I’m not pointing to any one person, but the point is that here were people who themselves as defending the truth, and they ended up crucifying God. You know (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right.”) so we have to be – that’s – that’s one thing, and then the other thing it’s – it’s human nature – we can get off on anything, and that is if we get into that, ‘Hey, we – we um – you know – we-we’re going to attack; we’re great attackers; we’re going to cast down the thing.’ Well, be careful because you might cast down truth in the midst of it (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right.”) and you might cast down things that are of the Lord, or you might just misapply it, and might over-fire, you might turn your fire on your own troops, (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Yep.”) And you have ‘friendly fire,’ You know. (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Yeah.”) And – and that’s – that’s the case as well, and so, you know, or we just become belligerent, and we’re – we’re just so into doing this, and we’re mocking it, and that’s not the Spirit of God. There must be truth and love at all times. (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right.”) And – and love has to be there, and our hearts have to be that we’re interested in – in redeeming, and if there is a real problem, we’re interested in correcting (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Yeah, right.”) and helping the person.
[Chris Rosebrough] “Right. I – I’m going to sound like a broken record to my listeners, but umm, you know; I keep coming back to Christ’s words to the church at Ephesus, in Revelations chapter two. He commended them for rightly testing people who called themselves apostles, and found them to be false. Christ absolutely commended them for that, but the thing that He had against them, and told them that if they didn’t repent of, He would remove their lampstand, in other words, turn off the lights in the church. Umm, it’s because they had lost their first love. In – in the pursuit of truth, somehow love had gotten lost in all it, and it was so grievous that Christ had to warn them so sternly to repent; ah that ah, that the – that the warning included a warning to basically remove their lampstand as a church. And that is (Jonathan Cahn can be heard saying, “Yeah.”) – that had – alone has got to be one of the most powerful passages that should temper us and keep our focus on everything we do, because, yes you’re right – there is false teaching out there – it is extremely dangerous, it sends people to hell, it must be stood against, but it always must be done with the idea that when you’re exposing error, you’re goal is to serve people, you’re goal is serve them and help them, so that God will open up their eyes so that they could repent, and be forgiven and set free from that false teacher, and that false doctrine; and experience the peace and the freedom that comes from the real Gospel rather than false doctrine.
[Jonathan Cahn] “Yeah, that has to be the heart, and – and you have to be careful how you wield your sword, because you can also – if you also start attacking in the same way people who are in the kingdom,, or because you have a difference over things which are not the foundational issue, or you just jumped to raise that sword, and attack – you know – (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Yeah.”) and you did it because you heard this word, or you heard this, or you made a judge – a snapped judgment, and you took out your sword and maybe killed somebody. You know, umm. (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Yeah.”) Absolutely, and what you share is one of the most important things – I mean – what’s the heart of God? Say you do have a real issue with someone, and it’s a real – it’s a heresy or (unintelligible) well then, your heart should not be mocking, it should not be, ‘Hey look what I found,’ you know, it should be that, ‘Hey, we gotta pray for these people, we’re gonna deal with truth, and we’re gonna deal with love’ (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Yeah.”) ‘and try to save them.’
(Station break for commercials)
[Chris Rosebrough] “Alright, we’re back. (music playing) “Warning; listening to Fighting For the Faith can make you supremely dissatisfied with discernment websites that don’t speak the truth and use lies to defend the truth. Just a reminder; Fighting For the Faith is ‘listener supported radio,’ that means we depend upon you and your generous gifts and financial contributions in order to continue to bring Fighting For the Faith into the world, and you can partner with us by visiting our website, Fighting For the Faith.com. When you get there, you’ll see our two friendly yellow buttons; one says ‘Donate’ the other says ‘Join Our Crew.’ When you join our crew, you are signing up to automatically contribute six dollars and ninety-five cents every month for the ongoing work and mission of Fighting For the Faith, and Pirate Christian Radio. It’s a great way to support us, of course, if you’d like to specify the amount that you would like to contribute, you could do so by clicking on the ‘Donate’ button, or you can make your gift payable to Fighting For the Faith, and then send it to Post Office Box 508, Fisher’s, Indiana, zip code 46038, and let me thank you, thank you, thank you for your support. We truly cannot do what we are doing without it. Alright, now here is the balance of today’s interview that I conducted earlier today with Jonathan Cahn, the author of The Harbinger, here we go.
[Jonathan Cahn] “Well, the next one…”
[Chris Rosebrough] interrupts, “Yeah, let’s take a look at the next one real quick. Did the person who accused you of Dominionism and the Prosperity Gospel repent of their accusation?”
[Jonathan Cahn] “No. No. They came out with a tape series, or a DVD series on it.” (laughter, Rosebrough is heard saying, “Oh no.” More subdued laughter. Rabbi Cahn is heard saying, “So, no.”)
[Chris Rosebrough] “Next charge. You’re – You–you’re a Freemason.”
[Jonathan Cahn] “Of – well, of course. You know, – I’m – I’m, I guess I’m Messianic, so maybe they confused it with Mas – Masonic, or something; I don’t know.” Chris Rosebrough laughs, saying, “It sounds like it, so it must be true, yeah.” While Rabbi Cahn jokingly says, “Yeah, I have to” jokingly continues, “or I do have to – you know – admission here, I – I, there was once I dabbled into Masonry, I was once on the Jackie Mason Show,” (Rosebrough is heard, “Ah.”) “I think that was a little, maybe that was it,” Rabbi Cahn says in jest then gets serious, “Ah, but; no what happened was this – this was made on the Internet, it was made in a major newsletter, umm which in one way or form or another linked me to Masonry. And how – what was this based on? What was the evidence? Again, used the word ‘mystery,’ used the word ‘consecration ground,’ speaking of where Israel was dedicated to God, and then I spoke America; using the word ‘key,’ umm – one said I spoke of an uprooted tree, and – and said that the Masons use the symbol of an inverted tree so therefore I must be a Mason. I spoke about a tree, and the–they have a tree. I mean. This is how (pause) – you know – this is how (pause) undiscerning it is, and (Rosebrough is heard chuckling) this was made – you know – in for - several public forums about me; (Rosebrough still chuckling) Masonry, never repented of, never – you know – never, ‘Hey, hey, we jumped the gun. We just accused a pastor of Masonry.” (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right.”) “Never in my life would I have anything to do with Masonry. (Rosebrough is heard saying, “Wow.”) This is just – you know – one of the many things, but yeah, yeah. Rosebrough, is about to interject to say, “I - I gotta…”, but Rabbi Cahn hasn’t finished, and he says, “And not just done, but done (Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right”) on – in the media, so these are thousands and thousands of people hearing this.”
[Chris Rosebrough] “So basically, they’re being fed a lie, telling you – telling them that you’re a Mason, when you’re not a Mason – you know…”
[Jonathan Cahn interrupts], “Or that I’m linked to it in some way.”
[Chris Rosebrough] “Yeah, that you’re linked to it in some way. You know, I gotta tell you; there – there’s a part of me that if somebody were to accuse me of that, I would probably send them video of ah, the Monte Python sketch from the Flying Circus – you know – ‘How to Spot a Mason’ – it’s actually hilarious. But ah, (Rabbi Cahn is heard in the background chuckling and saying, “Yeah.”), ha, yeah – you know. So they never repented, and so there – you know – there’s still the charge out there against you (Rabbi Cahn replies, “Yeah.”) that they got wrong and they haven’t said, ‘You know, ah Jonathan, I lied about you and said you were a Mason, and I was wrong.”
[Jonathan Cahn], “Or, or – yeah – or, or – or it said – you know – because – because I, or whether I spoke about using this word, or this word; which are regular words, or regular objects – that means (clears his throat) that means – that means, somehow that is linked to Masonry. And – you know – in some of these cases, the other part is I sought to – you know – let’s talk, let’s – let me deal with this, or at least answer this, and you know in most of them, you know, I would give credit for a few – but most of them – you know – refusing to talk, ‘We’re not giving any change to do this,’ and one of these things that g-gave allegations of – of links to Masonry went to a hundred thousand people in a newsletter. So umm (Rosebrough audibly moved by this news, says, “Oh my.”) “Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, again, and it doesn’t – I mean – you know – to me Chris, it doesn’t – I mean – there – there, I hope you and I hope anybody listening hears there’s no anger in my voice; I don’t have any anger in it – you know – it’s that – you know – nothing’s stops – is stopping the Lord’s purpose, but there are people who are confused, and it’s just – it’s wrong. (Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right, yeah.”) “Umm, you know, and yeah, then umm, another thing similar was a charge of some links to Mormonism and again, British Israelism. And this was ah, two – two of these people who went on the air and they did a whole segment that – that there’s some link to Mormonism and some link with me to British Israelism. Why? What’s the evidence? Because there were Mormons who were praising The Harbinger, you know, (Rosebrough laughs hard here.) and there were Mormons who were even – even, you know – even teaching The Harbinger, and listen, I hope there are a lot more Mormons will teach it, and I hope they’ll get to the – the part – you know – about salvation. You know. (Rosebrough exclaims, “Right.”) You know, but – but there’s a basic thing here, I’m not saying that – that another basic error of ‘discernment,’ because someone – someone praises what you did, that – or someone endorses it – that means that you endorse them and everything that they do.” (Rosebrough here concurs, saying, “Right.”) “You know – the Mormons technically endorse the Bible, they will – technically they read the Bible. That doesn’t mean the Bible endorses Mormonism.”
[Chris Rosebrough interrupts] “Well, if you really want to upset some people, it’s not that the Mormons actually endorse the Bible; they’re ‘King James Only,’ so – I mean – (Rabbi Cahn says something and Chris Rosebrough laughs) that means, yeah I’m sorry. [Jonathan Cahn], “You got a double thing in there.” [Chris Rosebrough] “Yeah. You got a double thing in there, but be thankful that Henry Kissinger didn’t ah, endorse your book – you know – that would just cause so – a whole lot of conspiracy theorists to literally – you know – lose sleep at night over it.” [Jonathan Cahn, flippantly voices], “Yeah, the Illuminati is behind The Harbinger.” [Chris Rosebrough] “Right.” [Jonathan Cahn, flippantly voices], “And the Trilateral Commission, of course.” [Chris Rosebrough] “Right. Like you have any control over so – so, anybody who says, ‘Hey, I like that book.’ Look, you had no control over that; so some Mormons liked it, and now you’re somehow affiliated with Mormonism.”
[Jonathan Cahn], “Yeah, and – and the – you know – and even though in this broadcast as in – you know – it didn’t outright say, ‘I’m a Mormon,’ but what it – what it said is, ‘Look, there’s – there’s links here; there is some link – there – we thought there might been’ – you know – ‘Jonathan, and Replacement Theology, British Israelism, and here’s the Mormon thing, and so – here is more evidence’ – and then – umm, and you know, then – then – you know, in the program it was said, ‘Hey, we’re going to keep you up to date on this breaking story, and’ (unintelligible) “Now – now, here is again, comparing to the world – you know – the standards; that you run an expose where you pick at something, you know, there was no one who ever – none of these people who were on the air, called me, or – or – or – or e-mailed me; and they all have my e-mail. Umm, I had – I had to push in all these cases to try to speak to them. Umm, and most of them. But there was nothing asking me, ‘Is this is true?’ , or, ‘What is this?’ , or, ‘What do you know of this?’ Nothing.” [Chris Rosebrough] “No attempt to fact-check. No attempt to confirm the allegations that they were bringing.” [Jonathan Cahn], “Where’s the seeking for truth?” (Chris Rosebrough concurs, “Right.”) “If you’re really seeking for truth, that’s – you value truth, that’s what you do. That’s doing your homework. You don’t cut corners, in the same way that people who are into cults do. That’s the very thing that we’re against.” [Chris Rosebrough concurs] “Right.” [Jonathan Cahn], “So this was done, and then – you know – you know then – you know – one of them said something like, ‘Well – well, what did we say, we’re?’ I said, ‘You know – it’s kind of,’ and you almost allude to this, ‘it’s kind of if I said to you, I went on a public forum and said, ‘You know, there’s a – there’s a – a woman of ill repute, and her car was in front of this – this ah, minister’s house for a few hours, and this happens – and I don’t talk to you, and don’t check. Say it turned out that there was a woman of ill repute who was being witnessed to by a pastor’s wife – you know – simultaneously as Chris Rosebrough says, “Right,” Rabbi Cahn, continues, “But I don’t check with you when I go on the air and make these allegations which are saying basically that ‘You’re an adulterer,’ Rosebrough is heard concurring, “Right,” and “Yeah,” as Rabbi Cahn continues. “You know – I said, ‘Is this wrong?’ Wrong. So this is just – that’s ‘the Mormon charge.’”
[Chris Rosebrough interrupts] “These – these are the same tactics that you see in like, umm the ah, the Inquisition, ah used ah, by the Roman Catholic Church, by the witch hunts of the Medieval Age, and ah in America; I mean (Rabbi Cahn is heard saying, “Yeah,” in the background as Chris Rosebrough speaks) “I mean, these are the same exact kind of ‘GROUPTHINK,’ and what I find interesting is that when you kind of study the psychology ah – ah – yo – they’ve got this – they have this group of people that they’ve demonized and there’s all this shorthand; it’s as if they don’t have time to actually lay out a case, so they just throw out these really highly-charged words – you know – ah yeah, ‘This person is associated with ah, the Mormons,’ and you know – you know – whatever, and everyone, ‘UUUuuuuaaahhhh!!!!’ Rabbi Cahn is heard saying, “Yeah,” in the background, as Chris Rosebrough continues, “And what that does is all the shorthand gets represented, and ni evidence has to be brought forward, all you have to I say the word and the word itself is – is ‘golden’ because the person saying, there it is. You know – you’re guilty until proven innocent.”
[Jonathan Cahn], “Yeah, it short circuits true discernment. And it short circuits real – it – it short circuits, or just not short circuit – it short circuits real – real umm – you know – the real ah, exercise of discernment that is needed,” Rosebrough says “Yeah,” as Rabbi Cahn continues, “You don’t have to; once you bring, once you drop these words, as you said, you don’t have to go into any real ‘thing’ here. Rosebrough says “Yeah,” as Rabbi Cahn continues, “And that is the problem. And it – it is – you know – you brought up what’s – what’s been done in history, and that’s true, and some people have brought up the – the parallel of McCarthyism where it was the same thing,” Rosebrough says, “Yeah,” here, as Rabbi Cahn continues, “Guilt by association – you know – this one was seen here with this, or this one used this word – or this, you know, a superficial connection which has nothing to do with any real connection, ” Chris Rosebrough is heard affirming with a “Yeah,” in the background, as Rabbi Cahn continues, “Remember, this was done in the New Testament – this was done in the Bible – and you know – Jesus was called a ‘wine-bibber and He is a friend of sinners’ - people looking at the superficial thing and missing the whole heart of it, Chris Rosebrough is heard affirming with a “Right,” in the background, as Rabbi Cahn continues, “ and the same with Paul. Isn’t he the one who does it? And you know, what it really points to is that it has to do with human nature,” as Rosebrough affirms with a “Yep,” as Rabbi Cahn continues, saying, “And it’s not – Listen, we’re all subject to it,” Rosebrough concurs with a “Yep, that’s right.” And none of us are above it. We have to pray for our brothers – well, it has to do with human nature, and human nature does these things – you know – Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right,” in the background, and Rabbi Cahn continues, “It demonizes people; it judges – it, we set ourselves up as the judges – as the self-righteous – you know – judges that can judge everyone else; ah, we look for evil very often, and you know; yeah, you go into a supermarket, you’ll see the National Inquirer, you’ll see a lot of gossip rack, because there is a thing in human nature that also does this” Rosebrough affirms, “Right,” as Rabbi Cahn says, “I’m not speaking of any individual and their motives, but the point is we have to be careful because those motives are still part of the flesh,” Rosebrough affirms, “Right,” as Rabbi Cahn continues, “So, once I can dress it up with – ‘Now, hey now I have a reason where I actually do this, I actually have self-righteousness, I have it, I actually have the truth, therefore I can do this without – you know – accountability, ’ the rest of Rabbi Cahn’s statement is inaudible and unintelligible.
[Chris Rosebrough interrupts], “Kind of ah, a pious way of dressing up a sin, is what you’re describing there.” (Rabbi Cahn is heard saying, “Yeah,” in the background as Chris Rosebrough speaks) “But, I – I want to make something really clear at this point, or this point in our conversation, and that is this; if you’re listening and you’re guilty of doing this – whether it’s to Jonathan Cahn or somebody else – I have really good news for you, because this program is not about demonizing you. This is really actually a call for you to repent. This is a call for you to say, ‘You know what? These men are speaking the truth. They just called out my sin, and they are right. It was wrong for what I’ve done.’ Yeah, I’ve got good news for you. Christ – died – for – that – sin. He’s died for these sins. ‘He was pierced for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities, and all of this was laid upon Him,’” then he says in a very loving and soft-toned manner, “Repent (pause) and be forgiven. Repent, and be forgiven, and seek reconciliation with those whom you have wronged in this way. And then bear fruit in keeping with that repentance. Because discernment work is a vital part of what the church needs to be doing, but it needs to be done in accordance with the truth, not this type of lies, and slanders, and false accusations, and refusal to repent when proven to be wrong. Okay.”
[Jonathan Cahn], “It’s ah, Yeah – Yeah, and that’s – listen, and – and – and nobody is above it, and this is not again, we’re kind of hopefully bending over backwards to say that this is not about people, it’s about what – what how – how something good can go off, Rosebrough affirms, “Right,” as Rabbi Cahn continues, “and it goes off, anything can go off can be used by the enemy. Rosebrough says “Yeah,” as Rabbi Cahn continues, “And you know, the enemy – the enemy is called the accuser of the brethren,” Rosebrough affirms, “Right,” as Rabbi Cahn continues, “and so, we have to be careful when we are accusing and accusing and accusing and accusing,” Rosebrough affirms, “Right,” as Rabbi Cahn says, “and we’re dealing with where it could be the brethren – you know – and” Rosebrough affirms, “Right,” as Rabbi Cahn continues, “You know, where we can end up doing his work, ah, you know, mixed in with doing God’s work!” Rosebrough affirms, “Yeah,” as Rabbi Cahn says, “You know, that’s the point; it’s not that people are not doing God’s work, but – you know – the–these things – but again, I think that we’re – we’re very much – things that are very needed – that is, ‘what is discernment itself – is that you distinguish, that you do your homework,” Rosebrough affirms, “Yeah,” as Rabbi Cahn says, “You don’t jump, and you label – broad brush – broad brush and label, ah you distinguish what is between light and darkness.”
[Chris Rosebrough] “Right, and it has to be done with real statements made by real people that really say – arr – what they’re saying. This is one of the reasons why I spend – you know – so many hours every week literally, umm working out theological themes, and then when I play somebody and respond to it, you actually get to hear what they say, and what they’re preaching and teaching, so that I’m not just saying, ‘Oh yeah, you know what so and so said? Here’s what they said,’ – no, no, no, no, no, no, no – you get to hear them, and then we open up our Bibles, and you never get to listen to Fighting For the Faith with an open mind; you only get to listen with an open Bible.”
[Jonathan Cahn], “And you don’t – and you don’t take things out of context,” Rosebrough affirms, “Right,” as Rabbi Cahn says, “And you don’t twist things out of context, and your heart – you know – you apply the same standard that you would to – to – what if someone judging your ministry? Rosebrough affirms, “Right,” as Rabbi Cahn says, “You know – I’m not talking about you, I’m saying, anyone who says this; you judge by the same standards. Rosebrough affirms, “Yes,” as Rabbi Cahn continues. “How would you want them to judge you? How would you want them to take this? Would you want them to take a statement and take it out of context, and then say this, or because you use this word? In the same way, judge righteously.”
[Chris Rosebrough] “Right, absolutely. Let’s talk about some of these last charges here; umm, you’ve been accused of ah, teach – teaching basically Jewish Mysticism and the Kabbalah, and the Occult.”
[Jonathan Cahn], “Yeah – Yeah, well, [while Chris Rosebrough asks] “When did you do that?”
[Jonathan Cahn], “Yeah, well this one – this – this – this one – I guess I was getting used to – getting used to all this, and then this hit me, and I said, ‘Whoah, what was this!??’ And people who – you know – were supporters of ours were saying, ‘What’s going on?’ I had to say – you know – what – what this thing was. Basically, ah – ah, two things. Ah yeah, I was charged with being into in some way into the Kabbalah, or associated with the Kabbalah, or advocating Kabbalah; Jewish Mysticism, the Occult.. Why? What was up – by the way, this was done publicly, on the Internet, publicly on radio forums, publicly in print, umm to massive amount of people. Umm, and involved many people. And what was it based on? It was based on, umm there was a while back, ah – ah good while back, I did a series to – in the Jerusalem Center – on – on the apolog – an apologetics series, how on in – you – when you look at those even those who deny Jesus, like the ra – rabbis,” Rosebrough is heard grunting, “Oohoom,” in agreement, “the rabbinic writings. They actually speak of things – they actually point to a Messiah who dies for our sins, you know, who ah – who ah – you know – is to be a light to the Gentiles, and of course, these are in Scripture, Rosebrough affirms, “Right,” as Rabbi Cahn says, “But who say all sorts of things that actually bear out Jesus. So, and this is a – you know – and including that – I – I use any – you know – I look through all different rabbinical writings; from the Talmud to ah to – to the Zohar,” Rosebrough affirms, “Ahah,” as Rabbi Cahn says, “to the – to all different things as a ‘hostile witness,’ saying first of all from the beginning, that these people don’t have the truth; that they’re off – I could have used the Koran – I mean, if I was doing a thing on the Koran – if there was something there. Umm, the point – this is a – this is a standard of umm – standard of Apologetics” Rosebrough affirms, “Right,” as Rabbi Cahn says, “that is that of a ‘hostile witness.’ You’re not endorsing the sources that you quote from, in fact, we do it all the time.” Rosebrough again affirms, “Yeah,” as Rabbi Cahn continues, “You can quote from people who are denying Jesus, whether they’re atheists, whether – whatever it is, and actually – actually point the conversation to Jesus, or say listen, ‘They’re actually – they’re actually – they’re actually going against their own argument and upholding Jesus” Rosebrough affirms, “Right,” as Rabbi Cahn continues, “A lie is who is going to contradict them?”
[Chris Rosebrough] “Right. The late Walter Martin used to put out these tape series that were just fantastic called Dialog on the Doorstep. And so, you know a Christian brother would be playing the role of the Jehovah’s Witness, and Walter Martin would then dialogue with him, and another person would play the role of a Mormon. So you know, it was – it was a role play in order to – you know – to teach an apologetic lesson, so basically, what you’re saying – you know – you basically played the opposite side so that you could turn right around and explain to people – you know – what this means and how we as Christians are to understand it, and – and dialogue with that and give them the biblical worldview, right?
[Jonathan Cahn], “And – and ha – and ha – and how (clears his throat) even in – even those who deny Jesus, because the truth is the truth, that even in their writings, you can find contradictions to that denial, and you can find pointing to” (Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right”) “the very things they deny; meaning the rabbis are even saying that – that, even though they’ll deny it to – you know – modern rabbis will deny this, in the ancient writings, it says that Messiah dies for our sins! You know – you know,” Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right,” as Rabbi Cahn continues, “And this is a powerful thing to use for Apologetics,” Rosebrough affirms with an “Oohoom,” as Rabbi Cahn speaks. “It’s powerful to use for Jewish people who don’t know the Lord, which I’ve used, and we’ve seen people get saved. You know – and all sorts of things like that. There’s a mention of something where we say, ‘the mercy of God comes from something called Golgotha.’ Now they don’t know what they’re doing; they don’t know what they’re saying – you know – and the point is I make it very clear that – that – you know – they don’t know the truth; they don’t have the truth – this is called a ‘hostile witness.’ (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right.”) “You take somebody on the witness stand who’s denying it, and you show they actually – they actually even affirm it when they try to deny it; it’s one of the most powerful things.” (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right.”) “So that was the theory. And by the way, this has been done since the beginning of the church age till now. I mean, it’s done in track,” (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right.”) “it’s done all – and – you know – and the fact is, it’s done by Paul himself when he is on Mar’s Hill,” (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Yep.”) “and he actually quotes from – and you know they kind of try to – people try to white wash it – he’s quoting from hymns to Zeus,” (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Yeah.”) “Which are – which are, and he cle – what he’s doing is he’s speaking apologetically to witness to pagans to say that even in their own writings, they’re actually upholding these things about God, and yet – yet, if you look at the original writings, it’s speaking about Zeus. So Paul – does that mean Paul’s endorsing Zeus? NO. I mean – I mean, if I did what he did, I’d be crucified. You know – you know.” (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right,” chuckling.) “He says it speaks about the He ‘we, we are His offspring.’” (Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right.” ) “That’s speaking about Zeus in the original one, but Paul is saying, ‘No. There is a deeper thing here,’ so – you know – I would be crucified by that. But, so the point is that – that he clearly did that, and so what happened it would be like if Paul went on Mar’s Hill, he did that, which he did, and then – then all these sites that were around at the time, and the people said, ‘Look, Paul was actually an advocate of Zeus worship; (Chris Rosebrough is heard laughing and saying, “Right.” ) he’s an advocate of paganism, (Chris Rosebrough is heard laughing and saying, “Right.” ) look he clearly quoted from it, and he clearly said that – you know – I mean – that’s exactly, and they crucified Paul, who is using this to win people to the Lord, they’re crucifying him, and saying – and accusing him of being a - a pagan Zeus-worshiper. And this went all over the Internet, and people said, ‘Oh yeah, forget about Paul, he’s a Zeus worshipper,’” Rosebrough again affirms, “Yeah,” as Rabbi Cahn continues, “you know – that’s how bad, that’s how slanderous it would be, that’s how much false witness it would be, that’s how much of a sin this would be.’ Rosebrough again affirms, “Yeah,” as Rabbi Cahn continues, “But that’s what happened. And so – and so – and it went from one site to the other, it even went into a book, and I’ll give you an example; at one point – you know – it said – and then there was entire program – program that was done on there – in one site it said that – it – it actually said that – where one actually in written form, said that I was telling people to follow the rabbis, or to listen to them, and they – they took the quote out of context, where I said – where I said in the – the teaching - said, ‘Look, listen – listen to the rabbis; they’re even saying it,’ Chris Rosebrough is heard saying, “ahah,” as Rabbi Cahn continues, “listen to the rabbis on this point – obviously, it’s clear what I’m saying, and clear what I’m not saying, but it – it was twisted around to say to make it look that I was telling the people to follow the rabbis. You know – you know, that’s how twisted it was.”
[Chris Rosebrough] “And see – see; this is where – you know – mmm – red flags are going off in my mind. I mean when somebody can manipulate somebody else’s words to make them say the opposite of what they’re saying, that – as far as I’m concerned – you cannot do that accidentally. It is not possible to accidentally misquote somebody if you’re actually carefully reading through somebody’s words. Context, context, context. You know, and uhhh, this is – you know – one of my pet peeves here, because there’s lot of people out there who are literally ripping God’s Word apart, and ripping things out of context to make it say things that God never said; and when they’re doing that same thing to you, again, that’s not light, that’s not truth, that doesn’t give glory to Christ, that is the – Jesus Himself said that Satan I is the father of lies, and that lying is his native language. And so when you’re engaging in lies, you’re speaking the language of the devil; you’re not serving the Gospel.”
[Jonathan Cahn], “Yeah, and you’re being an accuser of the brethren in the midst of it, and you know, Rosebrough affirms, “Right,” as Rabbi Cahn says, “What is – what is a lie? It is a truth that’s twisted around.” (Rosebrough affirms, “Yeah” ) “And that – that’s exactly it. And – you know – and this was done – I mean – this was major – I mean it was done throughout –can find it – it’s was all over, and it was an absolute falsehood. In every – in every teaching that I did, and listen, tomorrow I can do a teaching where I show the Koran does that – I mean, I don’t know if I’m saying, or I can show – the point is..” [Chris Rosebrough interrupts] “You did that, you’d become a Muslim all of a sudden.” [Jonathan Cahn], “And then, yeah, yeah; and – and the thing is that – the thing is that, umm, it’s twisting everything on its head. I said from the beginning, ‘The rabbis don’t have the truth; they don’t have the gos – they don’t have – ‘But look even here, – and listen, you can use it in evangelizing, ‘Look what they’re saying here.’ And – and that the fact that God is Sovereign, and He can even use things, just like again Paul did that. But, if you can do that with Paul, which you could do, you could do much worse than what happened in Mar’s Hill (Rosebrough says, “Yeah,” in agreement here.) “But if – if you could do that, that’s a dangerous thing, because that’s what the enemy would have done to Paul; that’s what the enemy would have done to any of us.” Chris Rosebrough, gives a “Yeah” in agreement here as well to what Rabbi Cahn is saying. “And so we have to be very care – you know this is the problem. The other ‘evidence’ – so-called ‘evidence’ is that in The Harbinger, it was said that – you know – there’s a – there’s a point – as you know, Chris – there’s a – there’s a fictional story” Rosebrough replies, “Yep,” as Rabbi Cahn says, “which is the framework, and so I use at one point the figure of an Orthodox Jew who’s into mystical writings” Rosebrough affirms with an “Oohoom,” as Rabbi Cahn speaks “who the guy goes to, to try to find some truth. (Chris Rosebrough, replies, “Yeah” as he understands what Rabbi Cahn is referring to.) “And what the guy – what they guy ends up giving him is nonsense. Total. Misses – he misses obvious meaning of it,” Rosebrough says, “Yep,” here, as Rabbi Cahn continues, “the guy who’s into the mystical writings – misses it, over-mystifies the whole thing,” Rosebrough affirms with an “Oohoom,” as Rabbi Cahn speaks “and – and gives him something that is totally ‘off the wall.’ Rosebrough is heard saying, “Right,” as Rabbi Cahn continues, “And then – and then in the – what this was used for, because he mentioned – you know –someone was into Jewish Mysticism, that meant – that was part of the evidence that I advocating Jewish Mysticism, which clearly it was the exact opposite. In the very – In The Harbinger itself, you know, the chief character himself says – you know – ‘You’ve missed the obvious; you’ve become too mystical,’ it’s obviously going against it,” Chris Rosebrough, gives a “Yeah” in agreement here as well “but they took the very thing, twisted it around, and this was evidence that I was advocating the very thing that I was saying was wrong.”
[Chris Rosebrough] “Yeah, you know; I want to respect your time, and – you know – we’re – we’re bumping up on our – on an hour, and we – we talked prior to you coming on the air, and I wanted to – to end off the program today, I’m going to segway to the end, ah um in talking about two very real harbingers regarding the eminent return of Christ, and umm maybe we can talk about this, because I think we’re experiencing it in what we’re looking at in, in what you’re talking about here – what has happened to you, and what is happening out there in the broader ‘discernment world.’ It – it sounds to me like these harbingers that Christ and – and the Holy Spirit have given us are actually coming true in our time. Ah, Matthew chapter twenty-four, verses ten through twelve says this – Jesus speaking says (pause) regarding the end, ‘And many will fall away and betray one another, and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray, and because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.’ What I’m seeing – you know – is that people who should be exemplifying love – the Scriptures say that they’ll know we are Christians by our love – the people who – who’ve been forgiven – who are cleansed – who are washed – who are redeemed – who are loved by God – are not extending that love even to their own Christian brothers, and acting in a way that is lawless. And because of that, we’re seeing that the love of many right now is – is growing cold. I think this is a valid harbinger that Jesus gave us regarding the end times. What say you, Rabbi Cahn?”
[Jonathan Cahn], “Yeah, well – you know – yeah; and here – here we are – you know – in the end times, and here we are surrounded by such apostasy, such hypocrisy – you know – I mean in a sense in culture from what is God’s creation, and in the body from what is the Word of God, and you know, we in the midst of all this – we – you know – we can’t be shooting ourselves falsely. You know – we can’t be” (Chris Rosebrough, replies, “Yeah.” ) “We can’t be – the enemy loves it if we’re taking what should be used – you know – in a rightful way, ah we’re taking the sword, and we’re attacking each other with it (Rosebrough concurs with a solemn “Yeah,” here.) over grounds that are not legitimate. (Rosebrough concurs with a solemn “Yeah,” here.) “You know, then – then we’re destroying ourselves when we should be standing strong. Yes, you have a difference, then deal with it, yet deal with it in love, but deal with it as- as is right as the people of God in the body.”
[Chris Rosebrough] “Yeah, second harbinger, from 2Timothy chapter three; the Apostle Paul writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, says, ‘But understand this, in the last days there will come times of difficulty, people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, they’re going to be heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,’ and I need to make a note here exegetically; that’s how the world has always been. The reason why this – these great difficulties are coming that the Apostle Paul is prophesying is because that becomes then a mark in the church rather than just in the world. What do you think?”
[Jonathan Cahn], “I think – I think it’s, ah I think that’s true, and I think also another sign it – it is the degree of intensification in culture is – is part of it as well. (Rosebrough is heard saying, “Yeah.”) “I mean, the kind of throwing off of all ‘Christian’ garb – you know – in Western Society – you know – brings – makes things intensify. Umm, but certainly – you know – anything that is a warning to the world, is also – is a warning to us.” Rosebrough solemnly says, “Yeah,” as Rabbi Cahn says, “We have to remember, we’re dealing with the flesh too, and we have to – you know – we have to deal with our own flesh so that we could lift up the Lord – you know – in the way we are called to do.”
[Chris Rosebrough] “That’s right. Well umm, Jonathan, thank you for coming on a second time on Fighting For the Faith, and” (Rabbi Cahn is heard saying, “My blessing Chris.”) “my hope and prayer is that ah, the Lord will use this to bring good. To bring repentance. To bring reconciliation. To bring the Gospel to bear umm, in a place where it should’ve been all along, and ah, my hope is that the tone will change, and that Christians who are doing important work of defending the truth will do so with integrity, will do so according to the standards that God has set in His Word, and always with an eye towards serving the neighbor, and serving the neighbor so that his eyes can be opened; he can be brought to repentance, and repentant faith and trust in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins. If we’re not doing – if that’s not reason why we’re doing any of this, we may as well not be doing it at all.”
[Jonathan Cahn], “Amen. Absolutely.”
[Chris Rosebrough] “Alright. Thank you, umm Jonathan. Shalom.”
[Jonathan Cahn], “Shalom.”
[Chris Rosebrough] “So what you’d think? Controversial? Provocative? Said it the way it is? Well, maybe? Maybe not. Love to get your feedback. If you’d like to e-mail me regarding what you heard in this edition or any previous editions of Fighting For the Faith, you can do so. My e-mail address is talkback@fightingforthefaith.com, or you can subscribe on Facebook, it’s facebook.com/piratechristian, or you can follow me on Twitter, my name there on piratechristian, until tomorrow, may God richly bless by the grace and mercy won by Jesus Christ, His vicarious death on the cross for all of your sins, amen.
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