SIDEBAR: It appears that “GABRIEL” in the discussion below is also “RAFAEL,” as this is the name given for the one who submitted the original post as “GABRIEL” but later deleted the postings under the name of “RAFAEL.” He’s also posted himself as LEGNA (see J.P. Collado’s post below in this discussion. Many thanks JP)
Anyone who resorts to multiple entries under more than one pseudonym is duplicitous and ought not to be trusted by anyone. JB
Love is His nature; Justice is His necessity -- We have been warned, January 4, 2012
Full disclosure - I've been a member and/or attending Beth Israel under Jonathan Cahn's leadership for a decade. I have never seen or read anyone that can unpack information with the facility he does. Having been familiar with much of the information and facts contained in The Harbinger through Rabbi Cahn's sermons over the years, I am still blown away by the amount of seemingly new information in this book as well as the method and order of its revealing. He brilliantly unfolds this message that needs to be (and is) as resoundingly clear as can be: God is warning this country to turn back to Him. As anyone with ears to hear and eyes to see can tell, we are living in perilous times. This narrative and the true, checkable facts it is built around demonstrate that even in chaos, there is order ... and that nothing happens (or will happen) apart from God's allowance. He is in control.
If you doubt His being in control - or if you doubt the parallels between God's dealings with ancient Israel and the events in America since and including 9/11, reading The Harbinger with an open mind will change that. Reading it with an open heart might just change your life.
Shalom
Initial post: Jan 4, 2012 6:41:32 PM PST
As anyone with ears to hear and eyes to see can tell, we are living in perilous times.
Oh please, rabbis have been predicting the end of the world and the coming of the Messiah and perilous times for well over 5,000 years. The world is always in flux, terrible things are always happening to people and to the planet, and people are always afraid of the future and their neighbors. This book seems written to capitalize on that fear.
In reply to an earlier post on Jan 5, 2012 4:11:11 AM PST
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Hi Patricia...where was the end of the world predicted by Jonathan Cahn?
As for Messiah's coming, have you read Isaiah chapt 53? (actually beginning with the last 3 verses in 52)
Lastly, did you read this book (Harbinger)?
Thanks and God bless!
Shalom
In reply to an earlier post on Jan 21, 2012 1:21:07 PM PST
[Deleted by the author on Jan 31, 2012 1:06:16 PM PST]
You are just promoting your review, as though it were a book, seriously Gab, your review is fatally flawed. See my reply to your review!
In reply to an earlier post on Jan 27, 2012 1:01:27 PM PST
I understand your skepticism but suggest you study the probability [mathematically] against the idea that the converging events of our day fitting with so many biblical predictions going back several millennia, are just a coincidence. It is more obvious every year that science and history confirm the reliability of the bible
In reply to an earlier post on Feb 22, 2012 7:13:52 AM PST
Patricia,
You seem to think the world came into existence on its own volition and will continue on until infinity. This can be dis-proven even through natural science. Many in our days are scoffers at Biblical Truth, but anyone who truly cares to study God's Word will find that every prophecy in the Bible, with the exception of those that deal with the last days before the coming of Christ, have all been fulfilled and can be completely documented. Those who scoff at the 'end of the world as we know it' only do so because they have failed to educate themselves on the factual and undeniable Truth of Scripture
Posted on Feb 23, 2012 12:44:18 PM PST
I hit the wrong key....I meany YES, the comment was helpful. My question is....is this book fiction or non ? TCBPC@aol.com
Posted on Feb 28, 2012 10:21:16 AM PST
Buy this book immediately. It will blow you away. Every detail checks out on the internet. George Washington gave his inaugural address invoking God's blessing at the little church in 1789. The sycamore tree at the church was hit by debris from 9/11. The tree's roots were turned upside down and made into art, shown at the church today. The new tree corresponds to the Isaiah 9:10 quote. The famous men who quoted Isaiah 9:10 were clueless about what the verse actually meant when they proclaimed it at their various events. The Hebrew calendar predicted the DAY that the two stock market crashes--2001 and 2008--would happen. The way all of our debt was wiped out--twice--seven years apart-- is amazing and is seen in Hebrew scriptures clearly. These and SO MANY MORE amazing parallels between Isaiah 9:10 and America will make you stay up long into the night to see what the ending is! I am buying many more copies of this life-changing book. Wow!
Posted on Mar 4, 2012 2:34:11 AM PST
Excellent review! Keep up the good work.
Patricia, please DO read THE HARBINGER, and you will have a much different perspective. For your own sake.
In reply to an earlier post on Mar 20, 2012 3:47:41 PM PDT
The book is written like fiction to make it more interesting to read....however, all the information regarding the harbingers is factual and can be confirmed.
In reply to an earlier post on Mar 20, 2012 3:49:05 PM PDT
Gabriel, please give us a link to your rebuttal...would like to read it.
In reply to an earlier post on Mar 20, 2012 4:26:23 PM PDT
In reply to an earlier post on Mar 20, 2012 5:27:59 PM PDT
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I agree with all that you state about how the world has always had these bad things happening, but I'd add that if Prophecy predicted the past events why would I think The prophecy for the future wouldn't come true.
He who doesn't learn from the past will perish. I'm not afraid for myself, death is not the end for me, it's the beginning. I'm sad for my fellowman who doesn't have eyes to see and ears to hear.
In reply to an earlier post on Mar 20, 2012 5:58:07 PM PDT
Mar 20, 2012 4:26:23 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author, RAFAEL, on Aug 27, 2012 5:04:06 PM PDT]
Actually, Gabriel, if I'm remembering who you are correctly, I think I asked you to present an erroneous fact from the book, and you instead directed me to the writings of others about hermeneutics. Wasn't that you?
If you'd like to engage me, I would again ask you the same question -- please present one of the facts from the book you find in error and maybe we can discuss it.
That you disagree with the conclusions is obvious and stating that over again isn't a conversation starter.
Shalom
In reply to an earlier post on Mar 20, 2012 8:35:13 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author on Aug 27, 2012 5:04:21 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on Mar 21, 2012 5:58:36 AM PDT
I'm sorry you find my post arrogant. It's a sincere request, and the only way I know to go forward with any sense of reason. You've made the claims about the book -- you should be able to bring forth a fact.
Let me know when you wish to really discuss it -- I'd be more than happy to.
Until then, shalom.
Lee
Mar 21, 2012 9:04:30 AM PDT
[Deleted by the author, RAFAEL, on Aug 27, 2012 5:04:31 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on Mar 21, 2012 9:04:30 AM PDT
[Deleted by the author on Aug 27, 2012 5:04:31 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on Mar 21, 2012 9:33:52 AM PDT
The post that you led me to before -- as you surely recall -- contained instruction to read others materials on hermeneutics. I've asked you consistently each time, Gabriel, to address one fact from the book and you've refused each time. EVERY time. It's clear from anyone who reads your posts that you have a real issue -- following this book around -- trying to bring it down. And yet for some reason you have deleted many of your posts.
I've tried to engage you and you've refused. I can't play your game any longer. I wish you the best, but I'm placing you on ignore.
May you allow God to reveal what is really going on in your heart and have Him deal with it so you can move on.
God bless--
In reply to an earlier post on Mar 21, 2012 3:00:52 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author on Aug 27, 2012 5:05:08 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on Mar 22, 2012 3:30:03 PM PDT
Gabriel,
Good review (I have been aware of it for some time).
I am working on an in-depth review/ critique of the book. I have done 3 nationally-broadcast radio interviews with Dr. Jimmy DeYoung concerning the book, with a 4th and final one on Saturday. I would like to interact with you some concerning the book. If you would be willing to do this, my email is: djames@biblicalintegrity.org.
Thank you.
Dave James
The Alliance for Biblical Integrity
Mar 21, 2012 3:00:52 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author, RAFAEL, on Aug 27, 2012 5:05:08 PM PDT]
[Deleted by the author on Aug 27, 2012 5:05:32 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 6, 2012 7:20:26 PM PDT
It seems to me that if the shoe fits, wear it. I find the harbingers strikingly accurate for our time. Those who don't understand what it means in our day to repent will not like Rabbi Cahn's interpretations.
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 6, 2012 8:11:44 PM PDT
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I completely agree with Pastor Cahn that America is in trouble and needs to turn to God. I also agree that the only solution to the problem is for individuals to trust Christ as their Savior.
As a Bible teacher, my concerns are that the Bible has been mishandled and a closer examination demonstrates that the harbingers do not fit quite the way the book portrays them. There are a number of inaccuracies, as well as misrepresentations - which I am documenting in a review that I am writing.
Another concern is that what the book appears to say and what Pastor Cahn has said in some public forums about what he believes are not the same thing. This opens the very real possibility that his views will be very much misunderstood. Again, in a personal radio discussion with him he acknowledge that this could happen.
You can hear this discussion at ProphecyToday dot com
Dave James
Executive Director
The Alliance for Biblical Integrity
It's not a matter of not "liking" his interpretations. It is a matter of handling the Word of God correctly and applying it appropriately.
Dave
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 12, 2012 8:45:25 AM PDT
Hello,
I also am in the camp of those that agree that America has had a serious moral decline and that there are serious, world-changing events unfolding around us, but I can't say that I agree with the author at all.
I will try to read the rest of the book, but so little is Scripturally or historically accurate that it's difficult to continue.
How can 9/11 be viewed as the first breach in the wall? Did Pearl Harbor not occur? How about the burning of Washington DC in the War of 1812? Talk about events that nearly led to the end of the United States? Fast forward into the 1930's and we have a far more serious economic unheaval in the Great Depression than we have today.
In reality, the reason we went from the 1950's to 2001 without a serious attack was thanks to being the premiere nuclear power which kept USSR in check and our military superiority. I thank God for those things, but let's not mistake that the nation wasn't exactly honoring a covenant with God during that stretch. Our successful defense was based on military and scientific superiority, which even though I acknowledge as a gift from God, the nation never did any more so than the post 9/11 response. I just feel like the historical references are completely void of context and depth.
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 12, 2012 9:02:52 AM PDT
Jamadan,
You just made several of the same historical points that I am making in the book that I hope to release next week as a response to The Harbinger.
Good analysis.
Dave James
The Alliance for Biblical Integrity
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 12, 2012 9:28:18 AM PDT
Hi Jamadan,
Thanks for your comments, and for being able to disagree in a straightforward and sincere manner.
A couple thoughts; no one is suggesting 911 to be the first attack on America ... just as the attack referenced in Isaiah 9:10 was not the first attack Israel had ever suffered. But what is being said is that the attack and response of Isaiah 9:10 can be viewed as a pattern for what is going on in America -- and that the 9/11 attack finds its pattern parallel in that verse. The verse in Isaiah describes the first breach of the pattern/ sequence that led to Israel's destruction -- not the first attack ever. This is the context in which 911 is the first breach.
Of course there have been other difficult times when perhaps the existence of our country was in doubt and could have gone either way -- again, that's not (as far as I know) being challenged or otherwise claimed by the book. (although Pearl Harbor would not be a good counter-example even if Cahn _was_ claiming as you've suggested for several reasons, one being Hawaii was a territory with military post and hardly the same as an attack against civilians on a piece of real estate that is not only on the mainland, but is the heart and center of America's and the world's worship of money...I think you would agree with that).
I agree with you regarding reasons we have maintained superiority for these 60 years ... naturally speaking. But the natural doesn't preclude God's being in it as the natural reason may simply be the means by which God accomplishes what He does.
The nutshell: The attack did happen -- bricks fell and sycamores cut down (literally)...as in the Isaiah verse. The verse of scripture (Is 9:10) was indeed read the following day (with no knowledge of the tree) with the intention of being inspiring yet minus the understanding the verse actually was an expression of defiance against what God has allowed. The cut/hewn stone was brought in as the ceremonial first step of rebuilding. The pinacea tree was planted in place of the sycamore. The attack did indeed happen at/near the site of President Washington and other leaders' first official act after the swearing in -- a couple hour prayer session consecrating what they were doing and the nation to God.
I believe God speaks to us today in many ways. There have been times I've opened to a passage of scripture that "coincidentally" is about the very thing I'm going through/struggling with. I am convinced God is in that...pointing me to the portion of His Word that carries the wisdom that will carry me through my own situation.
And what God can do for the individual -- in the micro -- He is able to do in the macro.
At it's core, the Harbinger is simply a warning and a call to repentance.
Again, thanks much and may God bless you.
Lee
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 12, 2012 9:37:37 AM PDT
Hi Dave,
I hope you consider what I've written in response to the historical issues Jamadan has expressed.
I noticed in your earlier mention of the discussion with Jonathan you said Rabbi Cahn admitted his book could be misinterpreted -- as though he was acknowledging some mistake you had pointed out. That is not what he was saying (I listened) and I was a little surprised you "interpreted" it that way. ANYthing can be misinterpreted (scripture is misinterpreted all the time) -- that's what he was acknowledging.
God bless--
Lee
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 12, 2012 9:46:25 AM PDT
You only heard the on-air discussion - not read the email correspondence. He is aware that 4 other dispensational theologians in just my immediate circle all INDEPENDENTLY came to exact same interpretation of his book - as have others here. Acknowledged or not it is a problem. However, he does recognize the potential. You may want to be a bit more cautious in your conclusions.
My book will make a very strong case that the pattern is more manufactured than real and that the "harbingers" don't really exist. The reader will be free to draw his own conclusions.
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 12, 2012 10:10:16 AM PDT
"Again, in a personal radio discussion with him he acknowledge that this could happen." -- Dave James in an earlier post.
What conclusion did I falsely come to, Dave?
We all need to be very careful... I completely agree. We should be very careful about everything -- whether that's here in a tiny forum discussing a review or suggesting someone to be an advocate of Replacement theology on a national radio show.
Yes, I agree we all need to be careful.
Kind Regards,
Lee
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 12, 2012 1:18:46 PM PDT
Personally, as a run-of-the-mill Christian and not a biblical expert, I think the "experts" over-analyze everything and try to make it much too difficult to understand. The message I get from The Harbinger is that we as individuals need to REPENT because WE have allowed America to get where it is today. The Lord is trying to warn us, and Rabbi Cahn has been given special insights from the Holy Spirit which guide us in that direction. Period. Those of us who aren't trying to nit-pick this simple message GET IT!!
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 12, 2012 1:30:45 PM PDT
Rose, you are a breath of fresh air! Thank you and God bless you.
The complicating of that simple message of repentance has more to do with gnats and camels than anything else.
Blessings!
Lee
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 12, 2012 1:59:21 PM PDT
Rose, I very much appreciate what you are saying. And I very much get the simple message of repentance. Unfortunately, it seems that the author is the one who has made this incredibly complicated by mishandling both Scripture and historical events.
Concerning the gospel itself: If you go back and take a look at that section of the book, the gospel itself is not very clear. Someone who is already a believer or an unbeliever who understands the gospel would be able to see the gospel in the dialogue, but it it isn't clear and it isn't complete. We don't know from the book that Jesus is the Son of God or that he is God, (although in one sentence this is implied), that Jesus is the Messiah, that he arose from the grave, that he is alive and returning, or exactly what it means to be saved (it mentions forgiven sin, but not eternal life). Also, it talks about God's justice and his infinite love, but the book doesn't make clear that his justice can be satisfied and his love received by God's grace through faith in Christ. It would only take a couple of sentences because it is so simple.
The author has said that the book is also for unbelievers, but an unbeliever who has never heard the gospel clearly and simply presented would very likely not understand how to be saved. This is at least as serious a problem as the rest of the book.
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 12, 2012 2:01:07 PM PDT
Lee,
It sort of begs the question about complicating the gospel when the whole story is based on a supposed hidden mystery in what he calls an obscure verse that determines everything about America's future. That hardly seems like a gnat.
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 12, 2012 3:15:04 PM PDT
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THE HARBINGER, page 254..."to find out more.......or for more about salvation or how to be part of God's work...write to: Hope of the World" etc. It is sad to read the criticism this author is receiving given the importance of the message he is bringing to our needy world! As I said, most of us "simple" people get it. Intellectualizing this message is like telling me how to build a watch when I ask you what time it is! I don't need to know the techniques used or how "dispensational theologists" interpret the book. I know what it means to me personally -- REPENT!! And I believe that is the message that Rabbi Cahn wants us to get.....and DO.
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 12, 2012 3:50:20 PM PDT
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Dave, the simple message of the book is America has drifted -- it's a warning to turn back. Repent.
I think that's very clear.
I'm not sure where you feel the _gospel_ of Christ has been complicated -- that's the first I've heard this new objection from you. Though the gospel is certainly pointed to in the end and via an invitation to learn more (as Rose pointed out), the focus of the book is repentance...warning.
And if there _is_ any kind of warning from God in the events of 911 (as The Harbinger trumpets), and you were to ever become convinced of it, I sincerely wonder what you would feel if your efforts had dulled that message? In all sincerity, Dave, do you feel caution over potentially hindering this message of repentance being heard by even a single person?
God bless--
Lee
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 12, 2012 3:55:01 PM PDT
Well, that's good that it refers someone - but that isn't the gospel. While in two simple sentences the gospel could have been made complete. According to Romans 10 the resurrection is a key component of the gospel and must be proclaimed and believed to be saved. If the book doesn't speak about the resurrection then it doesn't have the gospel. Therefore the book does not have the gospel and no one can be saved just from reading the book unless they already know about the Bible's teaching on the resurrection - and in today's world - most unbelievers don't have a clue.
I'm not intellectualizing the message at all. I'm emphasizing that it needs to be simple and clear enough for a child to understand - and it is not that way in the book.
It is good that you understand that the book is saying REPENT. It is saying that. However, you can't be saved by just repenting. REPENT is not the gospel. It is just one part of the gospel. You have to repent FROM something - which the book gives, and you must repent TO something, namely Jesus Christ and trust in him for salvation. The book does not state this.
Are you saying that this is too complicated? To repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, who died for our sins to give us forgiveness - and arose from the dead to give us eternal life? One sentence? That is too complicated? This is absolutely all I am saying concerning the lack of the gospel in the book.
I fully get it. And it is because of not clearly proclaiming the simple gospel message that our churches are filled with the unconverted.
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 12, 2012 4:04:23 PM PDT
I have stated over and again that I agree with the message of repentance.
I didn't say the gospel as been complicated in the book. I'm saying it isn't presented simply and clearly enough for someone to be saved. That is a fact. The book doesn't mention the resurrection or who Jesus is. That is a fact. Therefore the book does not contain the gospel.
Repent means turn. The question is turn to what? God? Yes - but it must be more than than that. It must be to the resurrected Christ in faith. This distinguishes the God and Savior of the Bible from all other gods. The book is completely missing this message and has given only a shadow of it - a facsimile.
I am not hindering the message of repentance. I am hindering an incomplete message, wrapped in an unbiblical package. An incomplete message wrapped in an unbiblical package does nothing but mislead and deceive. Do you feel caution in promoting this?
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 12, 2012 4:33:06 PM PDT
Dave,
I'm beginning to find your comments less than genuine. You're jumping around. Rose and I referred to the message of repentance of the book being simple. When I made the gnat/camel reference, you threw in an argument about complicating the gospel. I don't remember anyone making that argument pro or con before that one from left field by you.
Okay -- you'd have liked the clear gospel details to have been in this book. That's fair to want that but not a fair criticism of what the message of the book is. It's a completely different argument than what you have been making prior. And because you are now arguing against an argument I haven't made or defended, your words are reading as disingenuous to me.
My hope would be for you to be as gracious to Jonathan as he was to you and Jimmy when he came on to field your questions -- not holding you to some of your own earlier misstatements regarding him.
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 12, 2012 4:48:05 PM PDT
The book calls for repentance -- if you hinder it, you hinder that message. How can you say otherwise?
As for my own caution, I've stated all along the book is imperfect (anything other than scripture is imperfect), but I have absolutely no doubt about the core message of it -- what happened on 911 was and remains a warning to our nation. I believe whole-heartedly that when Tom Daschle quoted the verse from Isaiah, it acted as a prophetic sign/arrow to point us to a pattern (no matter what his personal motive was) that sheds light on our current situation. I believe the parallels between what is contained in that verse and what happened in NY in 2001 are beyond coincidence (there are other "coincidences" that the book doesn't even get into for that matter). Yes, I believe this nation, having turned away from God more and more -- at an accelerating pace since the early 60's -- is in great danger of further judgment...even destruction.
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 12, 2012 4:52:22 PM PDT
Lee,
I sincerely apologize for anything that I said that appeared ingenuous. Or for being ingracious if that it the case. That was not my intent.
I was simply responding to Rose's comment that I was making everything complicated and was getting away from the simple message of the book and that didn't get it. I was trying to make the point that I did get it - I do get the simple message of the book. And I was not going in a different direction at all, but picking up a different aspect of the simple message, which is to repent. My criticism was directly on point. It wasn't from left field. She was arguing for the simplicity of the message - and I simply pointed out that in its simplicity it had failed to do what it set out to do. Proclaiming "Repent!" without including the gospel is like yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater but without anyone knowing how to get out. It creates panic but no escape. This is what the book does - and does it unbiblically on top of that.
I am aware of only one misstatement - and that was in regard to the dream. And because the book is "real" I made the mistake of assuming that the dream was one the author had - and I corrected that in at least one, maybe two interviews.
Regarding replacement theology, I never said this in any interview that I can find as I have gone back through them. Jimmy asked the question, but I did not affirm it. What I did say is that the book gives the impression that America might be replacing Israel. I understand that this is not the author's position, but the book does give that impression. I also made this clear in the moderated discussion.
As far as I know, there were no other misstatements - and I have been able to thoroughly document everything I said either from the book or the documentary. My book has over 70 footnotes to this point and is very carefully researched.
I do not want to escalate this discussion into a flame war - so I will probably just quietly back out for now.
Thank you for your kind interaction.
Dave
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 12, 2012 5:00:49 PM PDT
In the book of Acts, Paul was preaching the gospel and a girl possessed by a demon was following them around and telling people to listen to them. She was absolutely right in what she was saying - but it was in a context that was corrupting the overall message.
The book is not calling for biblical repentance because it is not directing people to where to turn except a generic God. If the resurrected Christ is not the object of our turning - then the turning is in vain as is the call to turn. This I can hinder this with a clear conscience.
We are called to proclaim and defend the pure gospel as well as the Word of God. If the Word of God is being mishandled we are deeply obligated to deal with that as Paul made clear time and again.
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 12, 2012 8:15:00 PM PDT
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Yeshua is a "generic" God?? The references to the bible, Isaiah, Solomon...generic God? The call to repent and seek the one named Yeshua is not a "biblical repentance?" Very sad.
Again, a new argument from you, Dave, even as you are "backing away quietly". Your actions do not match your words. And your arguments do not match up with what has been presented in the Harbinger. A book that points people to Yeshua of the bible for salvation is pointing to the truth. Anyone who is told to seek salvation and truth in Yeshua and the pages of the bible has been well-directed....certainly not led to a "generic" God.
And in addition, you've gone from a promise of an article...to a pamphlet...and now it's a book.
Sad indeed.
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 12, 2012 8:39:34 PM PDT
OK Lee. I'm not what your point it. I have spent a lot of wasted time in forums, unfortunately.
I have no idea what you point it. What bothers me some is the spin you're putting on this.'
Lets move beyond generalizations and demonstrate that we can deal with the text of the book itself.
For one thing, the book demonstrably does not point people clearly to Jesus (Yeshua).
Show me from the book how someone can be saved by ready any portion of the book.
Show me any place where someone is directed to any truth in the New Testament.
Show me where Jesus is called the Jewish Messiah.
Show me where the book mentions the coming kingdom as prophesied in Isaiah 9:5-7.
Show me where someone needs to personally trust Christ and receive salvation by grace through faith alone.
Show me how "REPENT" in the book is no more specific and no more help than yelling "Fire" in a crowed theater.
Why is modern-day and future Israel never mention - even though those are critical inthe context of Isaiah 9:10.
I was not planning on a book - I don't have time for this. But the more I studied, the more I realized how broad was the deception being embraced and how little is being said. The further I got into, the problem became overwhelming and could not be ignored - so it ballooned.
My book matches point-for-point what is said in the harbinger with extensive notes and quotes. IT will be the author's words that cause him problems that are far more than what I could do.
He is undoubtedly a great guy with a great ministry. I enjoyed speaking with him. I'm confident that we could agree on at least 80% of our theology. To be honest, my greatest concern is that he has overstated his case , but because if it's popularity its influence is far greater than the value of its theological contribution. It is unfortunate - now that he has so much out there, it will be difficult to back up the truck.
That's really all he needs to do. It would not be difficult.
I hope the book response will be available by Monday.
I'm prepared to deal with specifics and stay on topic if you want to get into the actual exegesis of the biblical text as well as the historical errors and glosses.
Dave
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 12, 2012 9:33:30 PM PDT
Dave,
What spin did I put on anything? I quoted you. What I am finding frustrating is you claim you are done with this, but then write another post with more new arguments -- new claims. It's like saying you don't want to fight as you go out the door, but you toss a grenade behind you inside the closing door. It's not a fair way to "back away quietly."
You said "generic God" -- that was a gross overstatement.
When I found out you were going to be speaking with Jonathan, I backed right off our communication. Even after you posted your post-discussion update I left it alone. But if you continue to make characterizations that I see as unfair and/or wrong-- posting them here, I reserve the right to respond to them.
As for your list of prerequisites for the book, there have been reports of people coming to salvation in Christ through the influence of the book. Is there a need for further discussion regarding salvation after reading only the book? Probably (tho God can do what God will do), but the source of salvation is clearly not a generic God, Dave.
Yes, Jonathan is a great guy, and a wonderful teacher. Here is a link to a teaching clip... http://youtu.be/cYOH_INQtGI
Dave, I'm sorry if I've been a bit harsh in places. God has used Jonathan powerfully in my life, beginning with the most important night of my life, when for the first time I knew Yeshua's blood had covered me -- that I was forgiven not by anything I had done or could ever do, but that He had offered the priceless gift of eternal life to me freely...paid for by His sacrifice.
I hope you are seeking not only God's mind in this pursuit, but that you seek His heart, as well.
God bless you, Dave.
lee
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2012 7:56:02 AM PDT
Lee,
I, too, reserve the right to respond, even though I had planned on backing out for a time. I'm not sure what problem that presents.
As far as other new claims are concerned: I'm writing a book-length response, so it wouldn't be unusual if there are other issues that I haven't brought up previously in a short forum format. And there are many more. They aren't simply claims, they are documented.
Example of you spinning me: "As for your list of pre-requisites..." You didn't quote me on this and these are not my prerequisites - they are the author's. In the discussion, which I was just listening to again, the author says that part of his purpose was to see people saved. That is wonderful and a great goal. My only concern is that even if people have been saved, it is in spite of the gospel not being clearly presented in the book. Given his stated goal that is not a peripheral concern.
Generic God: I know 100% that Jonathan is referring to the God of the Bible not a generic God. I understand what he believes. But it is not an overstatement to suggest that by not including the idea that Jesus Christ the Savior is God as the heart of the gospel - then it is not clear that God is truly different than the god of Islam, as well as virtually all Christian cults. I know that's not what he means. But if you're writing for unbelievers that is something you should probably mention, even if in one sentence - because so many people think all references to God are about the same God independent of the religion.
I appreciate the special place Pastor Cahn has in your heart and life. I, too, have someone like that in my life. I would probably be physically dead by now and eternally lost if it weren't for that pastor. And, yet, I significantly disagree with him an several important theological issues. He is passionate about the Lord and undoubtedly many people have been saved under his ministry.
I think we would agree that God's mind and heart are one and to know one is to know the other. By expressing your hope that I am pursuing both is to subtly imply that you're not sure I am. I'm not sure that is the best way to discuss things, particularly in a public forum.
Thanks for the ongoing interaction.
Dave
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2012 11:34:13 AM PDT
Yea God--love the testimony and am reminded of how foolish we are--most of us tend to think we can 'earn' the favor and grace that can only be purchased at the infinite cost of Calvary, as stated in 1 Cor 6:20 in Weymouth's translation.
Am amazed anyone can argue about the impact and significance of the Harbinger--can only think it's from strong anti-prophetic biases and hyper-dispensationalist viewpoints of scripture
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2012 11:38:43 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 14, 2012 11:45:37 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 14, 2012 11:45:37 AM PDT
Dave,
"Prerequisites" was my word, referring to a bullet list of items you found fault with the book for not mentioning. I'm puzzled as to why that was misunderstood by you. In that list was your problem with Isaiah 9:5-7 not being discussed. It wasn't the signpost verse -- Isaiah 9:10 was (and is). John 3:16 wasn't mentioned either...or Genesis 50:20...and more than a few others.
And as for people getting saved "in spite of" one's presentation -- it's always in spite of ...never because of the person.
My concern for seeking God's heart remains, in spite of your difficulty with that concern.
Lee
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2012 11:43:21 AM PDT
Anyone who is somewhat familiar with Dr. Jimmy DeYoung's work of the last 30 years knows that his entire ministry is based on accepting every prophecy in Scripture as literally true. He is also one of the strongest and outspoken proponents of traditional dispensationalism. I work closely with Dr. DeYoung and the same is true of me. We are the furthest thing possible from being either anti-prophetic or hyper-dispensational.
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2012 11:47:55 AM PDT
David James says:
Again, thanks for the interaction. It has been very enlightening in giving insight into the thinking driving the broad popularity of the book.
Dave
Posted on Apr 21, 2012 12:38:37 PM PDT
I was listening to this very author this morning 4-21-12 on a radio station in St Paul, MN. I was blown away by what the author Jonathan Cahn had to say. I think everyone should read this book but I know they won't. I, for one, am going to buy this book now.
Apr 23, 2012 1:19:30 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author, RAFAEL, on Aug 27, 2012 5:07:21 PM PDT]
[Deleted by the author, RAFAEL, on Aug 27, 2012 5:07:21 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 23, 2012 1:47:47 PM PDT
You would do well to research the fruit of mens lives before you miss-label them!
Posted on Apr 27, 2012 11:07:39 AM PDT
"if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land."
(2 Chronicles 7:14 ESV)
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 27, 2012 11:42:28 AM PDT
Amen, and also chapt. 20 and chapts. 29 ff
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 27, 2012 3:28:53 PM PDT
Have to disagree strongly with D.J.'s conclusions. Whatever position a person takes the opposition strength usually is a measure of it's significance. All scripture has a prophetic element as well as historical applications. I think his focus on certain aspects of the passage does not rule out God's mercy and grace also being seen as His people, especially respond and draw closer--'turning at His reproof'.
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 28, 2012 6:30:52 PM PDT
Don't mean to make a big deal of your opinion--everyone is entitled to theirs. I haven't read the entirety of the Harbinger yet, and may never. I'm not too interested in that kind of scrutiny or whether his book has imperfections in terms of applications etc.-- 2Tim. warns quite sternly of wasting time on such wars of words-perhaps I should not have challenged? We won't be judged by whether we had perfectly orthodox theology but more by the words of Micah 6:8, as I see it.
One thing is clear to any who look at the integrity challenges on the Internet--most seem to be from those opposing the present day prophetic role in the life of God's people. I see this as a very 'telling' fact...the true value of a position is often measured by the strength of the opposition it stirs up.
God bless!
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 28, 2012 6:37:37 PM PDT
Dear moody-sr,
Blessed by your postings -- your balance and the spirit in which you share.
Thanks for making me look up a beautiful verse (Mic 6:8).
In Messiah,
Lee
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 28, 2012 7:13:07 PM PDT
If this were just a matter of wrangling over words, you would be absolutely right. However, it has to do with the very principles by which we understand the entire Word of God. This is not at all about minutiae. It is about mishandling the Word of God and misrepresenting historical facts - and then connecting the two.
Don't know if you read my entire review, but I have not engaged in a war of words over trivia. Not only did Paul admonish Timothy to not war over trivial words, he also admonished Timothy to deal with problematic teaching in the strongest possible terms. He also made it very clear that we will be held accountable to a very strict standard concerning what we teach.
Micah 6:8 is quite appropriate, but it does not exclude striving for right doctrine, but rather guides the way in which we should do so.
I would also kindly suggest that your point about the "true value of a position" doesn't really make sense. There is often very strong reaction to misguided and dangerous views. Beyond this, truth and reality are not determined by democratic vote -- nor are they measured by reaction either for or against.
Jun 13, 2013 9:53:43 AM PDT
The Pepster says:
There is not a humble bone in your body is there David?
Mar 16, 2012 8:28:34 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author, RAFAEL, on Aug 27, 2012 5:03:40 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 29, 2012 6:15:26 AM PDT
Gabriel,
I don't know you nor do I intend to start a fight with you however, your post is really a testimony to pride and pettiness. Since you've posted this public statement, I am responding with my thoughts on this post.
Quote:
"About two months ago we had a heated debate about the Harbinger. L. Weeks failed to produce the evidence I requested to substantiate his theological views about the Harbinger when challenged by me. I am still waiting for him to produce the evidence as requested. The Harbinger has some very serious theological and historical fatal flaws."
1) According to SCRIPTURE, why are you out on the internet tearing down another Christian's work? What does Matthew 18 say?
2) Nowhere do you explain YOUR theological view and yet state that the L.Weeks and JCahn didn't prove to YOU their position. I will ask an honest question, 'who are you that anyone should explain themselves to you'?
3) It smacks of envy to tear down/disparage a position with straw man comments like "The Harbinger has some very serious theological and historical fatal flaws" and not back it up specifically WITH Scripture. Don't you care about JCahn or is it that you covet his position as a leader within The Church? If you were genuinely concerned about the man you would have taken note of the EXACT flaws to JCahn who wrote the book and spoken to him privately.
4) Just because you sat in the Beth Israel congregation does not mean that you have any insight whatsoever to theological matters just as 3 years with Yeshua (Jesus) did nothing for Judas. Your sitting in the congregation 'knowing' JCahn (does HE know YOU?) doesn't mean that you know HIM. To know someone means that you're an intimate with a person, not just an acquaintance. I've met JCahn and Gary, spoken to them both, listened to their show, been to numerous services at Beth Israel, but I don't KNOW the man. With the number of people in that congregation, I suspect that you don't know him either. If you DO actually know JCahn, you should be ashamed of treating a brother in Messiah like this. Shame on you Gabriel if you actually know him - the Lord rebuke you.
5) No one should EVER read ANYthing with an open mind. EVERYTHING must be read through the lens of the Bible.
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 29, 2012 11:09:33 AM PDT
Sorry to offend--I thought Gabriel was the one I was communicating with?
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 29, 2012 11:18:10 AM PDT
thanks--not all were so grateful!
we all won't see eye to eye on all scripture--just have to be open to knowing Him better by His Spirit in the company of other thirsty followers--if you like the Micah passage [we named our third son Micah, and saw a license plate that yr with the verse on it; recently saw another with Micah 2:13...so appropriate since breakthroughs have been seen more and more & especially since 2007 !
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 29, 2012 11:26:41 AM PDT
My challenge to myself and others is to more and more grow in grace and learn to speak the truth in love. We all, in my opinion have to deal with the 'Pharisee within' and cast down our inner idols and in my walk this conquest of our personal Canaan lands & killing the kings in the 'kingdom of self' happens most effectively in the company of others who are not just feeding on Logos but also on Rhema, wielding the sword and tightening the belt of truth!
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 29, 2012 11:29:44 AM PDT
No offense taken. It's not personal at all. It's about the issues.
I only posted because a couple of posts earlier you had mentioned that you strongly disagree with my conclusions - and you said you weren't interested in that type of scrutiny - which I assumed was directed at my review. Since it claims to be fact and based on the Bible we should always be prepared to scrutinize those claims. How the next generation of believers understands and handles the truth as given in the Word of God is at stake.
A significant part of Paul's ministry was centered around evaluating and critiquing the claims of the many teachers who were influencing the church in his day. At least half of all his writings are aimed at correcting theological error. Not everyone is necessarily interested in getting into this sort of detail themselves, but we can be thankful that previous generations left us the legacy of defending the faith which the Lord would have us continue until he comes.
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 29, 2012 11:33:08 AM PDT
I get your Drift--indications are many are turning in response to the renewal fires burning--just find it hard to understand if anyone fails to see 911 as a call to prayer and turn from dependance on our wealth, military, and political system--and believe George Washington's word's of warning are still well taken, along withmost of the founding fathers
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 29, 2012 11:41:57 AM PDT
I haven't read much of the scrutiny since I find myself convinced that the events of 911 and following economic woes are best understood as God's call to return to greater dependence on His Spirit--am all for comparing scripture with scripture and am troubled by cessationist and hyperdispensationalist views and know that understanding of His word for me has been a growing process. We can agree to disagree in a way that is affable.
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 29, 2012 11:50:08 AM PDT
9/11, Hurricane Katrina, the Japanese and Indonesian earthquakes and tsunamis, the tornadoes in Kansas, the attack on Pearl Harbor, the war in Afghanistan, etc. - are all reasons for people everywhere to repent and turn to God. All words of warning are heeded by the wise.
For some reason, any critique of The Harbinger is being seen as a dismissal and attack against its call to repentance. That is true among secular critics - but couldn't be further from the truth among those who love the Lord and His Word. The problem is that this part of the message that is correct does not justify mishandling the Word of God and misrepresenting historical facts and misleading people. It is exactly this sort of thing that causes unbelievers to scoff at both Christians and God - and dismiss the gospel of Jesus Christ out of hand.
There are any number of ways that Jonathan Cahn could have given the same message and issued the same warning, without also introducing so many serious problems. It makes it just that much harder for those who do accurately present the truth to a lost world.
This is why it is a tragedy.
Jun 13, 2013 10:03:23 AM PDT
The Pepster says:
Unfortunately, your opinion is not God's Word, and for you to claim it is, as you do when you describe YOUR OPINION as such, indicates that those who read what you claim must be very discerning, because you keep coming back, coming back, coming back, coming back, and there is no end to your contentious spirit, nor is there any end to your accusations made against both this book and its author. Even after repeated exhortations, warnings, and Scripture; you ignore all of them to your own peril.
Jose J. Bernal
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 29, 2012 7:12:31 PM PDT
Well said, I assumed his critics were cessationists/hyperdispensationalists or 'unbelieving believers' in terms of understanding the many ways God speaks by His Spirit and through circumstances. I probably should not have interjected anything without reading more of the critique of the Harbinger. I listened to a couple of people who interviewed him on youtube and read a good portion of his book and didn't see glaring problems. Just don't know how anyone can dismiss the significance of the correlations between Isa.9 and the events at ground zero and the later economic meltdown? Just listened this past week to a review of prophetic 'words' spoken prior to the 1989 'World Series' earthquake. The dreams given Bob Jones gave critical details such as the fact that it would be seen live around the world--such a first and unique event! If that doesn't get peoples attention they are obviously willingly repressing the truth of Isa. 44 and Jns gospel that clearly tells us how God alone is capable of revealing such knowledge. I think Isa, 6 is another good example where God says ask me for a sign, make it tough but listen to prophetic voices but the king refused to heed and trusted in the arm of flesh instead. Second Chron 16 gives a very similar account.
Hopefully will get some time soon to read a little more of his critics reasoning's.
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 29, 2012 7:39:08 PM PDT
I think after reading my review, you will see that the proposed connections between Isa. 9 and 9/11 really don't exist anywhere close to the degree that they have been presented in the Harbinger.
We read this in Proverbs 18:17: The first one to plead his cause seems right, until his neighbor comes and examines him.
Not sure what you mean by hyperdispensationalist, as that is a pejorative term and has whatever meaning a critic would choose to give it. I am a traditional dispensationalist and I believe that dispensational theology naturally flows from a literal, grammatical, historical hermeneutic.
I am also a cessationist for what I believe are thoroughly biblical reasons (and I have intensely studied, researched and taught on this issue for 25 years - and came to know the Lord through a Pentecostal friend). However, I don't want to debate that in this forum. That being said, I do believe that the Lord is actively engaged in the world and in the lives of believers. However, this only forms a relatively minor part of my critique. In fact, if The Harbinger had actually made its case by handling the Word of God correctly and not misrepresenting historical facts, it would at least give one reason to once again evaluate the cessationist view (which I do all the time as I teach a course on biblical signs and wonders each year at the college level). However, it falls so far short that it actually adds to the argument on the side of cessationism.
However, until one reads both the book and my response, it would be virtually impossible to understand the core issues.
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 30, 2012 8:38:19 AM PDT
Oh my gosh! Is it a tragedy that many people are seeing the situation (moral and spiritual) in the United States in a new light?? Actually, perhaps the critiques of Rabbi Cahn's book (and all of us are subject to criticism....remember, we are NOT YET perfect!) will probably mean that more people will read his book, and get the message! On the other hand, I have attempted to read the summary of the critical book soon to be published, and don't even understand some of the words! So much for that! I have the "Main Message" and that's a good thing!!
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 30, 2012 8:54:06 AM PDT
Yes, it is a tragedy if the light is leading them in the wrong direction concerning correctly understanding God's Word. It is a tragedy if the light is misleading.
Any words in the critique that someone might not understand - and "hermeneutic" is the only one I can think of - are explained in the review. So, if we run across a word we don't understand, we just forget the validity and importance of what is being said? That's almost like saying, don't bother me with the facts - I like the my version of the story. Unfortunately, that is what many seem to be doing with The Harbinger.
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 30, 2012 9:51:01 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 30, 2012 10:15:09 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 30, 2012 10:15:09 AM PDT
"Tragedy" -- it seems clear none of us are immune to overstatment.
Where are people tragically being led to, Dave? Please give me some examples of those arriving at a false destination. I've met people who have come to our church because of the book -- believers who feel a great burden to go deeper in their walks than before; other Christ followers led to pray more -- for individuals and for the nation/leaders. There have been those who have repented and believed on Jesus for salvation -- and heard of reports from around the nation. I'm just not aware of people being led to Krishna, Buddha, or even a false Jesus because of the book.
One detail you continue to cite as an error is the comparison of Daschle's quoting of the Isaiah verse to Caiaphas's inadvertent (from his perspective) prophecy of Messiah's death. Honestly, I'm not sure I even understand this particular paragraph in your review. In each case, the speaker intended one thing yet the words carried more profound implications than the speaker's intention.
Daschle thought the verse was one of inspiration, isn't that so? But the verse is an example of a prideful attitude, isn't that so? Do you at least see the irony and how America can learn from the example this verse points to?
You don't think Ciaiaphas believed Jesus' death was going to be payment for our sins, do you? Of course you don't -- he intended one thing, but within the words of his statement is revealed something way beyond his intention.
One last suggestion; if you feel there is an incomplete call to repentance, and you're worried people will repent without understanding the blood and the cross, instead of putting so much energy into coming against the perceived incomplete message of repentance, why not spend that same energy filling in what you perceive as the gaps? Be like Paul was in Acts 17, unveiling the details/identity of the One they need to repent to.
Use the opportunity.
Hope you are well, Dave.
Blessings,
Lee
In reply to an earlier post on May 1, 2012 2:36:36 PM PDT
Gabriel,
Not sure if these post are getting back and forth as they are meant to when I review the string? Just went to the Dave James[my firstborn is David James]' blog and read most of it. I am not impressed with the reasonings--would like to know more specifically how he would exegete the chapter? Reminds me a little of the critics of 'The Shack', but I tend to be a 'right brain' kind of guy--maybe that's the difference? There is a passage in Isa. that seems clearly to be a prediction of the Aswan dam in Egypt--would like to know his take on that too. Am also reminded of many who I respect highly as very prophetic, with high profile national visibility who also are in apparent conflict over interpretations of earthquake dreams and their interpretation/application. We all see 'through a glass darkly' so I try not to get uptight over these differences and remember how challenging it was even for John, Jesus highly respected cousin, to know what God was up to; not to mention Peter et al.
In reply to an earlier post on May 1, 2012 5:46:03 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 1, 2012 5:48:24 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 1, 2012 5:48:24 PM PDT
Interesting-Cahn is not one who interacts with the likes of Rick Joyner and Mike Bickle etc, but they sure do have their haters. Rick and Graham Cooke have both told of how they were brought to a place of thanking the Lord for those who opposed them. Rick prayed for one critic to be 'removed' and he was but then the Lord said 'who do you want to take his place' ! As the late Derek Prince said, 'there are heresies and damnable heresies', and the other quote about 'essentials' vs. non-essentials:
John Hus
In Essentials Unity....
Moravians often quote "In Essentials Unity, In Non-essentials Liberty, in all Things Love" as a motto of the church even though it has never officially been adopted as such by the church. Recently I was asked about the origin of this phrase, and it proved to be a fun search via the Internet. Mike Riess of the Interprovincial Board of Communication helped track down some of the following information. The most useful site on the phrase is http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/jod/augustine/quote.html
The "In Essentials" phrase was originally in Latin and appears in two slightly different forms: "In necessariis unitas, in non-necessariis (or, dubiis) libertas, in utrisque (or, omnibus) caritas." The difference is whether there is liberty in non-essential things or in things that are doubtful, meaning that they are still open to debate and interpretation. The idea of "doubtful" things reflects the perspective of the Catholic Church more than that of Protestants. The Latin phrase has often been attributed to Augustine, and many people apparently believe that. However, no Augustine scholar has found the phrase in the great saint's writings and it is doubtful that he would have even approved of it. Incidentally, one of the most famous applications of the "In Essentials" quote was by Pope John XXIII before the calling of the Second Vatican Council.
The Moravian Brethren in the 15th and 16th centuries made it a point of doctrine that there are some things that are essential to salvation (Creation, Redemption, Sanctification, Faith, Hope, and Love); some things that minister to salvation (Word, sacraments, priesthood, doctrine, worship); and other things that are incidental to salvation (forms of rituals, language of worship, local traditions, saints days, etc.). This distinction between Essential Things, Ministerial Things, and Incidental or Nonessential Things was central to the Brethren's famed ecumenism. But the church did not use the famous "In Essentials quote" no doubt because Love was always an essential alongside Faith and Hope.
Didn't realize it was not actually traceable to Augustine. Personally I think it certainly applies to age of earth controversies and Calvinism vs Armenianism, among other frequent areas of dispute.
Keep the faith! Appreciate the dialogue!
May 1, 2012 3:01:40 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author, RAFAEL, on Aug 27, 2012 5:09:06 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on May 1, 2012 7:32:07 PM PDT
Gabriel, if you're concerned for anyone claiming infallibility of Jonathan Cahn, I stand with you on that...and I think Jonathan would, too. I've simply not seen that and know of no one who thinks that (which doesn't mean they don't exist -- just that I haven't met them). Men putting their teachers on a pedestal is always going to be an issue we need to be on guard about.
As for the video clip you mention, I didn't see that, either. But, what you quoted isn't a claim to infallibility that I can see at all.
Best,
Lee
May 2, 2012 3:15:56 AM PDT
[Deleted by the author, RAFAEL, on Aug 27, 2012 5:09:30 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on May 2, 2012 6:59:13 AM PDT
This dialog/banter is a valuable exercise--I believe. It's how gems get polished!
My question is whether this has become more motivated by a focus on the messenger or the message? The other thing that comes to mind is the math-I am not a statistician or mathematician but as I recall--probably from Josh McDowell's book--the odds that the correspondences dealt with in Cahn's book are not evidence that the Almighty is behind the circumstances, i.e. chance is not a plausible explanation for the facts-it's about infallible proofs, such as mentioned early in the book of Acts.
May 2, 2012 3:15:56 AM PDT
[Deleted by the author, RAFAEL, on Aug 27, 2012 5:09:30 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on May 2, 2012 7:06:33 AM PDT
He isn't infallible-the voice of God as 'heard' in the unfolding of histories of men and nations is. Lets not extrapolate too much from a short marketing clip. Twisting intentions, as I recall, is what led to the Fall!
May 2, 2012 3:15:56 AM PDT
[Deleted by the author, RAFAEL, on Aug 27, 2012 5:09:30 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on May 2, 2012 7:28:29 AM PDT
That video is a commercial for the book -- not the book, Gabriel. It's a bit over the top for my taste, but I'm really interested in staying with the core message of the book -- which is a call to repentance. the book makes it clear that through the events of 911 God is warning us by pointing us to a pattern/example.
Gabriel, may I ask you; did something in particular happened with you in your time at B.I. that soured you? I promise I'm not trying to be accusatory, but many of your posts have a very personal vibe to them ... as though there is something personal fueling you. Also, did you and I ever meet? Lee Weeks is my actual name, but I simply don't remember you (which means nothing, as I'm still meeting people for the first time who've been going there for years).
As for Jonathan being known for his profound teachings, I think that is 100% true. Most of those very deep teachings come down to one thing; how the entire bible, from Genesis to Revelation, is about the person of Jesus Christ - Yeshua Mashiyach. Whether that's the seven feasts laid out in Leviticus (ch23?), the details in the construction of the tent of meeting, or the many personalities of the Tanakh, I've learned above all that every detail in some way points to Him.
God bless,
Lee
May 2, 2012 9:56:39 AM PDT
[Deleted by the author, RAFAEL, on Aug 27, 2012 5:09:49 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on May 2, 2012 8:40:12 AM PDT
Gabe, Proverbs 18:2
In reply to an earlier post on May 2, 2012 11:56:05 AM PDT
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Gabriel appears to be confusing Jim A.[moody-sr] with Weeks...
In reply to an earlier post on May 2, 2012 12:04:42 PM PDT
To L. Weeks: all I can say is amen to your posting--it's not about a perfect messenger but whether God's intents are being communicated and obviously that is an awesome task and must be done with the greatest care and dependance on the Spirit. (Some of the back and forth comments seem to indicate confusion over who is responding to who?)
May 2, 2012 5:36:54 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author, RAFAEL, on Aug 27, 2012 5:10:01 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on May 2, 2012 6:16:10 PM PDT
Amen !
In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 2:44:42 AM PDT
"All of our debt wiped out" - where have you been over the last five years. The debt problem has got worse and threatens to engulf the world!!
Jun 13, 2013 10:24:56 AM PDT
The Pepster says:
It wasn't our debts that got wiped out, but the bankser's debt that got wiped out at our expense. Our elected officials whom they employ voted for that in 2008, then again in 2009, and this president has taken it to over $16 trillion dollars and climbing, with the help of both political parties!
May 25, 2012 5:49:28 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author, RAFAEL, on Aug 27, 2012 5:10:20 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on May 28, 2012 9:14:07 AM PDT
Was not able to find either of the mentioned items
May 25, 2012 5:49:28 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author, RAFAEL, on Aug 27, 2012 5:10:20 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on May 28, 2012 12:25:08 PM PDT
I was also not able to find these links. ???
In reply to an earlier post on Jun 2, 2012 10:00:54 AM PDT
Never has the US been attacked on its own soil. Hawaii did not become a state until 1959, 18 years after Pearl Harbor. The savings and loan failure, the housing bubble, the collapse of the US financial sector, the government takeover of the automobile business, wars on almost every continent. If you have ever read Matthew 24 in the Bible Jesus himself foretells of a time that will come to the world like a woman who is about to give birth. The pains come closer together and more intensely. Sitting through this process with my wife three times just gives me a tiny idea of what that might be like. The end of the world may not come for years. We have never had all of these problems facing the world with such intensity since the beginning of time. So I think this book is a reasonable response. The conclusion if sound for any time in history. We need to repent and turn our hearts toward God.
In reply to an earlier post on Jun 8, 2012 2:17:04 PM PDT
The more I read the last 3 guys posts...the more I feel they don't understand the whole concept of GOD'S HEDGE OF PROTECTION. US being a NUCLEAR POWER means little to GOD. I am sure Goliath had relied on his size and strength since he was their Champion (PREMIERE POWER)....but All it took was a boy and a stone to bring him down in the name of GOD! Please people go back and read your BIBLE!
In reply to an earlier post on Jun 8, 2012 2:27:17 PM PDT
Rose...I appreciate this post. Simple and to the point. Easy enough for the little children to understand. In the BIBLE the Pharisees also called themselves BIBLE TEACHERS..and very little was ever revealed to them. It does not take a scholar to see that GOD is sending us message after message and has been patient and merciful...but his mercy ALWAYS RAN OUT when disobedience and rebellion were evident.
Posted on Jun 8, 2012 8:45:00 PM PDT
T o all of those who say things are the same as they have always been as far earthquakes, natural disasters etc. You yourselves when saying that are fulfilling prophecy. 2 Peter 3:1-13. Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "where is this "coming" He promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." You must read the rest of it in the King James version. Jesus is coming, be ready. Eternity is a long time my friends.
In reply to an earlier post on Jun 10, 2012 11:59:22 AM PDT
Amen
In reply to an earlier post on Jun 10, 2012 12:00:03 PM PDT
moody-sr says:
So true !
In reply to an earlier post on Jun 17, 2012 6:00:20 AM PDT
Not
In reply to an earlier post on Jun 28, 2012 1:23:07 PM PDT
"We can agree to disagree in a way that is affable." And, I would add, without pompous bloviating from amateur theologians.
Mar 20, 2012 4:26:23 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author, RAFAEL, on Aug 27, 2012 5:04:06 PM PDT]
T. Fogler says:
Your entire profile seems to have vanished... which in and of itself is suspicious and to your credit. Daily I see things erased from the web, sites being taken down for no reason, pages missing and or all kinds of shannanigans going on while waiting for a page to load (if it even does load). I'd still like to read your review but am not sure how to find it.
In reply to an earlier post on Jul 8, 2012 2:24:56 PM PDT
Did you read the book?
In reply to an earlier post on Jul 17, 2012 11:13:01 AM PDT
well said!!!
SIDEBAR: The interview itself was conducted on July 20th, 2012, but the comments below submitted by Laura, was posted nine days later in which she makes some very salient points that need considering. This is one interview that I must review and address point by point. THE PEPSTER
FROM CHRIS ROSBROUGH’S SITE: FIGHTING FOR THE FAITH: A PIRATE CHRISTIAN RADIO PRODUCTION
Posted by: Laura | July 29, 2012 at 01:04 AM
I loved the interview. It was very informative and cordial. Jonathan, I felt, was treated with the utmost dignity and respect, unlike what he has been used to lately.
There is just no way all those harbingers could be coincidence so I see great value in Rabbi Cahn's book and have recommended it to my family and friends without reservation. It lifts up the sovereignty of God, something I learned about long ago and His sovereignty NEVER ceases to amaze me. This is just one more proof. Proverbs teaches us that the answer of the tongue is from the LORD and that it's God Who turns the "king's" heart whatever way he pleases so it's not a stretch for me to believe God directed the very words of our leaders and speaks in this way even today.
I just wish that Ken Silva would post this follow-up interview on his website, Apprising Ministries, since he has yesterday's broadcast posted on there. I asked him to post it but, so far, I don't see it. Not only that, but Apprising Ministries didn't entitle yesterday's broadcast as you did, Chris. They entitled it "Chris Rosebrough Short Circuits Jonathan Cahn and The Harbinger." That may have SEEMED like the case on yesterday's broadcast but Jonathan answered your seemingly "short-circuited" questions very well and to my satisfaction but admitted when more research needed to be done. That, to me, spells INTEGRITY. And just the fact that Rabbi Cahn has been so willing to place himself in various “hot seats” to be scritinized with, basically, a MICROSCOPE tells me he's honest and of a different caliber. So that title on the Apprising Ministry website is misleading, in my opinion, and I'm hoping you, Chris, can convince Ken to change the title as well as post this interview to bring more balance to the table.
I was also pleased that Jonathan admitted he needs to do some work on his correcting others he disagrees with when they make a statement during an interview since it CAN lead to some confusion and, since that is the case, I think other discernment ministries who have criticized Jonathan for this very thing should give him a break here and stop beating him over the head about it. We all need time to make changes in our lives and Jonathan is NO exception.
God Bless.
In reply to an earlier post on Aug 13, 2012 3:30:05 PM PDT
Really? Have you tried reading the Bible of late. We are living the end times right now and I pray you are ready. You don't have to believe the Rabi, open your eyes and ears, it is true this time.
In reply to an earlier post on Aug 13, 2012 3:35:09 PM PDT
Thanks for doing that. The word needs to be spread and atempts made to educate those who don't believe at this point. If just one is saved you will have done a great service. God Bless, Joanne
In reply to an earlier post on Aug 13, 2012 3:58:22 PM PDT
Are you, by the way, the Weeks of the Watchers? If so, delighted to meet you. I have seen you on TV with Gary. That is what I'm on now, looking for his book. Foolishly forgot to write it down after the rave reviews received during the convention this past week. Joanne
Mar 21, 2012 3:00:52 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author, RAFAEL, on Aug 27, 2012 5:05:08 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on Aug 13, 2012 4:04:35 PM PDT
Praise God for that. You rant like a child. Agree to disagree, please. We all have the right to make up our own minds without having negative, personal verbage. Joanne
Apr 6, 2012 2:50:01 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author, RAFAEL, on Aug 27, 2012 5:05:32 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on Aug 13, 2012 4:12:49 PM PDT
Does this involve James Bakker, who purportedly had this book published and is making money off it now for "Lori's House" and other projects he backs? Or John Ankerberg who has had Jimmy DeYoung on many times as a "factual" ending of the world times and a professed scholar on prophecy and Judaism tied together? Joanne
In reply to an earlier post on Aug 13, 2012 5:23:21 PM PDT
Well put, Rose...thanks. Joanne
Mar 16, 2012 8:28:34 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author, RAFAEL, on Aug 27, 2012 5:03:40 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on Aug 26, 2012 12:14:37 PM PDT
Just a warning to readers and other posters here. I've been dealing with a poster that goes by the username of LEGNA. Don't let him or her fool you. he is posing as a Christian to saw confusion and hatred. He is not as evenhanded as he fancies himself as any unbiased seeker can see from my interaction with him or here here >>> http://www.amazon.com/review/R29F5E1BPN0FR8/ref=cm_cr_rev_detup_redir?_encoding=UTF8&asin=161638610X&cdForum=FxGG3ZLW746XA4&cdPage=15&cdThread=Tx12011XIBJ8IJQ&newContentID=Mx173V7GXJCL963&newContentNum=147&store=books#Mx3DYNRS3GNAYWZ
Posted on Sep 3, 2012 10:13:56 PM PDT
I am hesitant to get the this book. Sounds like another Da Vinci Code where events and locations were neatly tied together to make a good story. And another review I read noted one thing: that Isrsel was chosen by God and not the other way around.
Posted on Sep 6, 2012 2:00:56 PM PDT
I could not put this book down! Every thing that Rabbi Cahn has delicately illustrated in this book has woke up my senses up to what's happened so far & what is to happen if we all don't wake up & turn our ways back towards God's will! Excellent story!
Posted on Oct 8, 2012 9:23:03 AM PDT
I got this book because I heard people talking about it, and since I'm very much in to prophecy and the end-times.This was one book I could not put down,and just like L.Weeks said as anyone that have ears to hear and eyes to see can tell that we living in the end times. I couldn't agree more with L.Weeks comment it really hit's the mark
In reply to an earlier post on Oct 8, 2012 9:29:03 AM PDT
Evelyn G. Jeri Carter says:
this is a wonderful book and I'm so glad to have it. because it is true.
In reply to an earlier post on Nov 3, 2012 6:19:38 AM PDT
You have obviously never read your bible - don't respond what you know NOTHING about!
In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 1:15:40 PM PST
Patricia, you remind me of a small child with both hands pressed against its ears, saying, "I WON'T listen, and you can't make me!" 2nd Peter 3:3-7 says: " Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, ALL THINGS CONTINUE AS THEY WERE, from the beginning of Creation." For this they are willingly ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water; whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished. But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men."
Posted on Nov 17, 2012 8:30:25 PM PST
cannot wait to read this book - in the end no matter what happens aren't we supposed to love and forgive? - just asking
Posted on Nov 25, 2012 11:39:47 AM PST
I have been saying for a long time the only reason God hasn't ended this earth is because he is a loving Father and wants his children to return to him. I pray each night that we will wake up and get him back into our lives, our government and our world. I keep thinking what can 1 person do, but if we change someones thinking that makes 2 and then 3 and we can make people see that these things have happened and if we don't change we will end this world. This book re-confirms that we need to change the way we live. 10 little commandments are all God gave us and that is what we need to get back to. I will be sending this out as Christmas gifts so the one's I love can read it and make up their minds for themselves. But I pray they will change. I am even going to mail it to my congressmen and senators. If more of us did maybe they would see what we want and that God belongs in our Government and we need to put his commandments back where they were, so people can see how they need him. The Harbinger Is a must read for everyone. It is a wake up call to us all. We have already started fall from the number one country, but with God we can put on the brakes and reverse the trend.
In reply to an earlier post on Dec 15, 2012 9:29:58 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 15, 2012 9:33:31 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 15, 2012 9:33:31 AM PST
I totally agree, I have checked out the specific prophecy's of the Bible, well over 100 very specific that are not just some general, vague ones like those in the grocery stands. For instance the birthplace of Christ which required J & M to return there at just the right time because of the decree of Ceasar Augustus who knew nothing of God's plan. The gambling of the Roman soldiers for Christ's robe. Many more that are just as specific! I know of many atheist who set out to disprove the Bible but the more they examined the facts for themselves they became true believers. Just google it for yourself, there is plenty that is easy to check. Main reason people refuse is because to believe in God means He has the right to be King over their lives. I know I was the same until I came face to face with death at age 20, now am 71 and God has been the best One in my life ever since!
In reply to an earlier post on Dec 15, 2012 9:47:50 AM PST
My debt was not wiped out - the debt of the US was not wiped out, so I am not sure I can believe anything else in your comment.
Jun 13, 2013 10:51:12 AM PDT
The Pepster says:
Again, our elected officials wiped out the debt of the specific accounts of people who to this day have not been identified, but live in Europe, at the cost of every tax payer, because our politicians are under their employ.
In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 11:48:27 PM PST
Spot on!! As I read the reviews on this book, I keep seeing things like "OMG!!! Read this book, it will totally blow you away!!!". Seriously, I mean, the Bible has been around for 1500 years and it spells out everything that is going to happen in this world now and in the future. There are over 2500 prophecies in the Bible and thousands of them have already happened. It is also a handbook for living - all you have to do is pick it up and read it. This is not rocket science people, and here's the really GOOD NEWS!! All this really bad stuff that the Harbinger "proports" is going to happen, and that will happen as described in the Bible (and I believe that because thousands of Biblical prophecies have come true), true believing Christians don't need to worry about at all - that's right all of that Armageddon, plagues on mankind stuff will not happen to true believers - why?? Because you aren't going to be here - Christians won't have to go through all of that. It is so very simple, and people get so caught up in so many complicated things. First, you have a decision to make - turn away from your old sinful life (and we ALL have sinned - you've lied, cheated, perhaps stolen, etc. - ALL have broken God's laws), but if you come to God, and admit that you have sinned against Him, that you are imperfect and not capable of leading a sinless life (God already knows this), ask Him to forgive your sins, and ask that you want to follow His Son Jesus Christ, and make Him Lord of your life, that's it. You don't have to "earn' your way to heaven. There is nothing you could have ever done that God would not forgive, and when you ask for this - the slate is wiped away completely clean - full pardon!! And, you will have everlasting life. How is this possible? Because, God realized that man was sinful and not capable for following God's laws, so he sent His son, to take on the sins of all mankind, be murdered and crucified on the cross so that we might be forgiven and live forever with him. That's how much he loves us. And the ONLY thing you have to do is ask for forgiveness, and ask Jesus to come into your life - no strings attached. If anyone else tells you different, they are not being honest with you. You don't need a priest to do this, you don't need anyone - just get down on your knees and make an honest, earnest prayer. I Promise, you it will change your life. Then - get a Bible, and start reading it. Some of it is difficult to understand. Start with Matthew and read the New Testament, and then go through the Old Testament. Get involved with a Bible-teaching church. THAT is a decision that you will NEVER regret.
In reply to an earlier post on Feb 27, 2013 7:05:25 AM PST
Hi L. Weeks,
Do you really believe in God? Then put your trust in HIM. Not man. Everyone have their own interpretation of the bible. But in the end ONLY GOD can bring you the truth. I am sometimes shock at the way we depend on human interpretation. Yet we don't trust that God can talk to us directly.
This book maybe be true, but nothing is new under the sun. How can you tell that this book is not written by a false prophet? The devil is quite cunning. We must always be prepare for Christ coming... NO ONE knows when and how and what time or what will happen. Christ gave a preview, but we have to listen to God and not Man.
~Blessing
In reply to an earlier post on Feb 27, 2013 7:08:03 AM PST
Thank you Linguini27.. Now that is what I am talking about. This is why Christ warn us of false prophet. We should allow God and his Holy Spirit to interpret his word for us and not man. Many who don't study their bible are easily persuade to believe anything.
~Blessing
Jun 13, 2013 10:52:55 AM PDT
The Pepster says:
Go to the Pepster's Post: A Voice in Cyberspace, and you'll find your answer there.
In reply to an earlier post on Feb 27, 2013 7:09:23 AM PST
Rose may I asked confirm by whom? The bible? what version and really under what languages?
Posted on Apr 10, 2013 3:57:23 PM PDT
L. Weeks, this is all very interesting. It seems the 9/11 Muslim terror attacks form a large part of Jonathan Cahn's narrative and rightly so. Does Cahn explore why 9/11 happened on President George W. Bush's watch? What did President Bush do that would bring this kind of harsh judgment or warning to America during Bush's watch? What did President Bush do after God's warning? Did Bush repent? What is Cahn's answer?
Jun 13, 2013 10:57:09 AM PDT
The Pepster says:
We've gone way past that with the current president; the first world leader in history to attempt to legitimize the deviant abomination of homesexuality and same sex marriage, the elevation of Islam over Christianity in the White House, the IRS's pursuit from orders directly from this White House against Evangelical Christians for their faith and the denial of tax exempt status of certain groups that oppose this president's policies, etc... One can go on and on, and not to mention, this president's direct support of infanticide, and tax payer support for abortion on demand, that has already snuffed out - MURDERED - over 50 million human beings. I'd say we've gone way past the tipping point
In reply to an earlier post on May 1, 2013 9:18:35 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 1, 2013 9:21:40 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 1, 2013 9:21:40 AM PDT
Steve, to your question, "What did Pres. Bush do that would bring this kind of harsh judgment or warning to America during Bush's watch?": I wonder who you place blame on for the several previous attacks on the WTC in years prior to the 9/11 attacks?
What happened on 9/11 had been in the planning for a long time. Those who chose the timing for it only did so at a time when they felt our nation's leaders may not be organized for dealing with such an awful occurrence.... since it was so short a time into Pres. Bush's term of office. My heart still goes out to President Bush. He was nothing short of terrific in his handling of the devastating attack on our nation. He is a true man of God. I pray God will continue to bless him and his entire family.
In reply to an earlier post on May 1, 2013 9:37:43 AM PDT
headteacher, I do not consider myself a religious man. Nonetheless, I hold a Biblical worldview. Either this rabbi believes God is sovereign or he doesn't believe God is sovereign. Either you believe God is sovereign or you do not believe God is sovereign. God told his prophet:
"Does a bird fall into a trap on the ground when there is no bait in it?
Does a trap spring up from the earth when it captures nothing at all?
If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble?
If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it?
Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel
To His servants the prophets.
A Song of Ascents, of Solomon:
"Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.
headteacher, I guess there are 'rabbis' and there are rabbis. There are great leaders like David and there are small leaders like George W. Bush and smaller leaders like Barack H. Obama.
Posted on May 1, 2013 9:42:46 AM PDT
I am thinking believers, both Christians and Jews, ought to put the following book on their reading list way ahead of Jonathan Cahn's book:Eye to Eye: Facing the Consequences of Dividing Israel
Amen and forever Amen
In reply to an earlier post on May 1, 2013 10:25:44 AM PDT
M. Morales, you wrote above, "The conclusion if sound for any time in history. We need to repent and turn our hearts toward God." To that I say, amen.
May I ask to whom or to what are you saying amen here?
In reply to an earlier post on May 21, 2013 8:05:27 PM PDT
Oh my gosh David, enough already. If you are not a fan of Jonathan's book, can't you please just go away quietly? I read The Harbinger in one day and I too feel that it has truly changed my life. I want everyone to read it; and I am buying the copies to ensure that they do.I was so taken with Jonathan's book and message that I couldn't wait to read the reviews. I was sure that I would get to identify with and share in the support of The Harbinger with others; but there you were, going on and on and on....why? I feel that your negative comments of The Harbinger are also an insult to all of us who appreciated it so much and have helped it to become the highly rated book that it is today.
Best of luck to you with your own project.
Kathy
Your post, in reply to an earlier post on Jun 13, 2013 9:05:57 AM PDT
You are at the epicenter of this entire unfortunate affair. Unfortunately, you have ignored my own requests time and again; private and public to allow me to address pont by point every charge you have written against The Harbinger, asking you if you may grant me exclusive legal rights to quote from your book and your writings so that I may assist you in resolving this matter by pointing the light of God's Word to each point and discussing it objectively by quoting you word for word. I need your permission to do this, and you have not answered me, Mr. James. I do so repeat now this request, so that you may grant me what you did nto have the courtesy of asking Rabbi Cahn for when you quoted from his work without his permission or permission from his book's publisher. Will you grant - I ask you here for the sake of resolving the matter biblically once and for all, grant me exclusive rights to quote your entire work at length, and address point by point what you have written? If you are sure that what you have written is correct and biblical, and sincerely want to get to the heart of the matter and get this resolved once and for all, then let me encourage you to grant me my request, and let us meet to discuss it in writing. I await your answer and response. Thank you.
Jose J. Bernal
Teacher of Biblical Studies Arise and Shine Academy, Beth Israel, Wayne, New Jersey
Jose J. Bernal
Teacher of Biblical Studies Arise and Shine Academy, Beth Israel, Wayne, New Jersey
Your post, in reply to an earlier post on Jun 13, 2013 9:19:40 AM PDT
This is the first time I have ever witnessed in my 35 years in God's grace someone criticizing another Christian on how he shares the Gospel of Jesus Christ!
Mr. James, I respectfully submit to you that you go back and come down from the heights you've put yourself in, and understand this about yourself as it applies to the person whom you criticize, and all others, including myself - we are wretches saved by the grace and calling of Almgihty God in Christ Jesus Our Lord. So, if I were you, I'd seriously reconsider what you have written and retract it, because you are in violation of James 4:11-12, and you are doing it in a manner that slanders how another shares Jesus Christ no less! This is a real first.
Mr. James, I respectfully submit to you that you go back and come down from the heights you've put yourself in, and understand this about yourself as it applies to the person whom you criticize, and all others, including myself - we are wretches saved by the grace and calling of Almgihty God in Christ Jesus Our Lord. So, if I were you, I'd seriously reconsider what you have written and retract it, because you are in violation of James 4:11-12, and you are doing it in a manner that slanders how another shares Jesus Christ no less! This is a real first.
Your post, in reply to an earlier post on Jun 13, 2013 9:48:12 AM PDT
You are both Cessationist, and therein lies your problem. As Cessationists, you do not believe that the God of the Bible, who speaks from Genesis to Revelations, speaks prophetically today. This disqualifies you and he from this discussion because you both (like other Cessationists) deny one of the key works of the Holy Spirit in convicting people of sin; God speaks to their hearts directly through the imperfect messengers He sends - us! Get off your high horse David! We're all in this together.
Your post, in reply to an earlier post on Jun 13, 2013 10:03:23 AM PDT
Unfortunately, your opinion is not God's Word, and for you to claim it is, as you do when you describe YOUR OPINION as such, indicates that those who read what you claim must be very discerning, because you keep coming back, coming back, coming back, coming back, and there is no end to your contentious spirit, nor is there any end to your accusations made against both this book and its author. Even after repeated exhortations, warnings, and Scripture; you ignore all of them to your own peril.
Your post, in reply to an earlier post on Jun 13, 2013 10:07:50 AM PDT
This is why I have written a book that addresses what The Harbinger says, and I am writing and will continue to write as the Spirit of God compels me to do so in Christ Jesus Our Lord, addressing the glaring misinterpretations, sweeping assumptions, and misrepresentations you write in your own work. It is something you should never have done, and for which you will have to account for to the One Who Alone Judges in righteousness.
My book will biblically explain in detail what you have failed to understand and have misread into Jonathan Cahn's book. Your book is a classic misunderstanding.
My book will biblically explain in detail what you have failed to understand and have misread into Jonathan Cahn's book. Your book is a classic misunderstanding.
Your post, in reply to an earlier post on Jun 13, 2013 10:10:07 AM PDT
You ought to quit your post and do what Paul did in Arabia, spend time alone with the Lord to honestly reevaluate the heresy of Cessationism you embrace. A Cessationist teaching prophecy is like putting a wolf in a hen house to guard the hens.
Your post, in reply to an earlier post on Jun 13, 2013 10:15:08 AM PDT
But that's the point, David; you don't have the facts straight. You've mangled them, and misinterpreted them, and read into them a narrative that is not there. There is something seriously wrong with you, and you don't even realize it. You read into what other people say and write. Then accuse them. This sounds like someone whose been doing that since the Garden of Eden, who said, "Did God really say that? No He didn't, because the day that you eat of that fruit you'll be like gods, knowing good from evil." You mishandle what The Harbinger says, then you rewrite the narrative to mean something its author never intended, then accuse of him of what you rewrote!
Your post, in reply to an earlier post on Jun 13, 2013 10:24:56 AM PDT
It wasn't our debts that got wiped out, but the bankser's debt that got wiped out at our expense. Our elected officials whom they employ voted for that in 2008, then again in 2009, and this president has taken it to over $16 trillion dollars and climbing, with the help of both political parties!
Your post, in reply to an earlier post on Jun 13, 2013 10:51:12 AM PDT
Again, our elected officials wiped out the debt of the specific accounts of people who to this day have not been identified, but live in Europe, at the cost of every tax payer, because our politicians are under their employ.
Your post, in reply to an earlier post on Jun 13, 2013 10:52:55 AM PDT
Go to the Pepster's Post: A Voice in Cyberspace, and you'll find your answer there.
Your post, in reply to an earlier post on Jun 13, 2013 10:57:09 AM PDT
We've gone way past that with the current president; the first world leader in history to attempt to legitimize the deviant abomination of homosexuality and same sex marriage, the elevation of Islam over Christianity in the White House, the IRS's pursuit from orders directly from this White House against Evangelical Christians for their faith and the denial of tax exempt status of certain groups that oppose this president's policies, etc... One can go on and on, and not to mention, this president's direct support of infanticide, and tax payer support for abortion on demand, that has already snuffed out - MURDERED - over 50 million human beings. I'd say we've gone way past the tipping point.
Your post, in reply to an earlier post on Jul 6, 2013 8:32:49 PM PDT
You and Mr. DeYoung are self-professed Cessationists. Cessationists deny the work of the Holy Spirit and key offices and gifts imparted by the Holy Spirit as listed in Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians in the Twelfth Chapter of said book of the Bible.
Posted on Aug 9, 2013 3:47:44 AM PDT
What I hate is reading a book which is not prefaced by a statement that the actual characters are fictional.
Are you a Cessationist also? If you are, then you have no business reading a book whose premise is a message that is prophetic in nature, because you do not believe tht God speaks in this day and age, which is an absurd notion and entirely unbiblical. How can one be a later day Watchman if he does not believe that God speaks, then who is that watchman speaking for? And by what authority, if God doesn't speak anymore? I recommend that every Cessationist obtain a copy of the seminal work On the Cessation of the Charismata by Jon Mark Ruthven. It is a complete scholarly biblical rebuttal of Cessationsim.
But it does state that...it says "what you are about to read is presented in the form of a STORY, but what is contained within the story is real".
WHY IS IT THAT THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA – A WORLD POWER – IS NOT MENTIONED IN BIBLE PROPHECY? READ THE HARBINGER AND THE TRUTH ABOUT THE HARBINGER AND DISCOVER WHY.
The Harbinger is written in the form of a novel that describes a biblical pattern of judgment that has repeated itself in just about every great civilization in history, but the book focuses on how this specific pattern of judgment befell the northern kingdom of Israel, headquartered in Samaria, in 732 B.C. when the prophet Isaiah rebuked and pronounced judgment on the nation for vowing – as he describes it – “in pride and in arrogance of heart” (Isaiah 9:9) ) to undertake a rebuilding and recovery program after a limited first strike on the land was made by Assyria. This rebuilding, replanting, and recovery effort was done without accounting to God in repentance, or giving Him any mind, much as our leaders today have done today.
The full strike occurred ten years later in 722 B.C., when the Assyrian Empire invaded Damascus, overran the northern kingdoms’ defenses, and exiled almost the entire population to the east, to the cities of Halah and Habor, on the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes. (1Kings 17:6) The Assyrians then resettled the land with Gentiles from Babylon, Cuthah, Avva, Hamath, and Sephar-vaim; who then mingled with what was left of the Israelites to produce what became known as the Samaritans. (2Kings 17:29)
The Harbinger breaks the various parts of this judgment down to its elements – nine specific warnings – harbingers – that manifested themselves in the land, and describes according to the summary parts contained within the biblical text as they are described in the vow made by the ancient leaders of Israel and how historically these played out, and their subsequent results. This vow was pivotal to their fate, because in pronouncing it, they unwittingly pronounced their own judgment, which Isaiah uses to prophesy God’s judgment on them and the land.
The Harbinger then takes the reader to the present and describes in exact detail and precision how the same pattern of judgment has befallen the United States. It documents thoroughly the biblical history contained in Isaiah’s prophecy and the prophetic events that are now a matter of public record available regarding the same patterns of warning and judgment that are now repeating in our land today, in the same recurring pattern of warning and judgment as they occurred in ancient Israel.
This exact vow that ancient Israel’s leaders pronounced has been repeated by three of America’s leaders, who while taking part in commemorations of the tragic events of 9/11, tied it directly to those events, and used it primarily as both a consolation to the nation, but also a vow of defiance against its enemies, and pledge to make it the nation’s rebuilding, replanting, and recovery efforts. Like Other leaders have repeated the vow in public ceremonies, all connected to the rebuilding efforts at Ground Zero. And like the ancient Israelites who made this vow unwittingly pronouncing God’s judgment on the land, so have our national leaders. The Harbinger describes this and presents also the public records of them for the reader. It presents the historical backdrop to the prophecy made by Isaiah, and describes how it biblically fits the recurring pattern of warning and chastisements that have befallen America since 9/11, including the Second Shaking, what Rabbi Cahn calls, the Isaiah 9:10 Effect; the economic implosion of America’s economy and the explosion of its debt, which are being felt right down to our day. This Isaiah 9:10 Effect has been made into a two-part DvD titled The Isaiah 9:10 Judgment, which describes all of the components that comprise it, and how it has come about. America is most assuredly under judgment, and The Harbinger describes how it is being played out.
It is not hopeless however, because The Harbinger presents the hope that since these are warnings – harbingers from God – they all indicate that He is trying to get our attention so that God’s people may call upon Him in repentance for themselves and their nation, seek His face, and avert the same fate that befell ancient Israel (the northern kingdom) at the hands of the Assyrians in 732 B.C. and 722 B.C., and ancient Judah (the southern kingdom) at the hands of the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar in 605 B.C., during the first deportation and in 586 B.C., during the final deportation to Babylon.
The Harbinger is a strong call to repentance to God’s wayward people in America today as we see the same recurring pattern of warning and judgment – the same harbingers – manifest themselves in our land today. It is a prophetic warning that must be heeded if we are to survive. It is the same warning that Paul in the Holy Spirit warned about when he used what had happened to Israel as an illustration of what would befall his people – the Jewish people, and all others who reject God’s warnings – His harbingers; where he writes:
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
“This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
(Romans 11:17-36)
The Lord is patient and ever ready to forgive our transgressions. He awaits to pardon US if we only seek His forgiveness fully realizing our guilt, confessing it to Him, recognizing how hopeless we are without His mercy, and calling upon His name – the name He has given under heaven to all men by which we must be saved, because as Peter spoke in the Holy Spirit to the Great Sanhedrin (Israel’s Supreme Court in his day where civil and religious matters were adjudicated), “He” – meaning the Person of the Messiah, and His name; the name of Jesus – “is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone. And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:11-12) This we all must do to avert personal judgment and the corporate judgment of our nation which we and it rightfully deserve. This is why I have written The Truth about The Harbinger: Addressing the Controversy and Discovering the Facts About This Prophetic Message to answer the critics’ charges as well as to explain how these warnings – these harbingers have recurred in our land today, and what to do about it. It must be heard and acted upon, our nation’s fate hangs in the balance, and we will be held accountable for it.
In reply to an earlier post on Oct 11, 2013 4:45:52 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 11, 2013 4:48:51 PM PDT
Steve says:
Come on. Does this author talk about Bush's betrayal of Israel?
a "novel that describes a biblical pattern of judgment that has repeated in just about every great civilization in history..."
This is not like every other civilization in history. This is a very different time (a "new" time) in history. Does this author have a clue?
In reply to an earlier post on Oct 11, 2013 8:33:50 PM PDT
Steve,
Regarding what you call Bush’s betrayal of Israel, what Bush are you referring to, the father or the son? And what betrayal are you referring to? Can you please define what you mean by a “new” time in history? And what do you mean if the author has a clue? Have you read The Harbinger yet? Have you read my book on The Harbinger, titled, The Truth about The Harbinger: Addressing the Controversy and Discovering the Facts About This Prophetic Message ? The reason I ask you these questions is in order to fully understand what you mean so as to prevent any misunderstandings between us. Neither Rabbi Cahn’s book or mine are political. It is not politics that we’re discussing here. It is the eminent judgment of God as the biblical patterns of warning and punishment, warning and punishment are being experienced in our land and around the world. What we witnessing is the clash of civilizations and the decline and possible eminent fall of Western Civilization, and the rise of Islam as a world power. It may very well be the catalyst to bring about World War and the final battle between evil and God at the return of the Messiah to Israel.
SIDEBAR: The exchange which follows is a different discussion pertaining to The Harbinger Companion with Study Guide. Of course, as in the other discussions, the accuser of the brethren manifests himself in his servant Rafael to bear false witness, confuse the body, cause dissension, and bear false witness. THE PEPSTER
DID ISAIAH 9:10 IN THE HARBINGER ACTUALLY FORETELL AMERICA'S DEMISE REGARDING 9/11 & 9/2008?, August 26, 2013
By
RAFAEL SAYS:
This review is from: The Harbinger Decoded (DVD)
"THE MYSTICAL TEACHINGS OF THE ZOHAR & THE ANTI-GOYIMITIC, ANTI-CHRISTIAN HATRED DOCTRINES OF THE JEWISH TALMUD REVEALED
& MR. CAHN'S EXTRA-BIBLICAL THEOLOGY EXPOSED: A TRUE FULL DISCLOSURE BY A FORMER MEMBER OF BETH ISRAEL"
ATTENTION AMAZON CHRISTIANS WORLDWIDE:
BEFORE YOU BEGIN READING MY COMMENTS, CLICK ON MY USERNAME RAFAEL AND TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT THIS PHOTO OF
MR. JONATHAN CAHN. NOTICE CAREFULLY HIS RIGHT HAND. IF YOU ARE WONDERING WHAT IS THE TRUE MEANING BEHIND THIS HAND SIGNAL OR SIGN WHICH HE USES LOG ONTO THE FOLLOWING WEBSITE:
Jesus-is-Savior.com. IN THE SEARCH BAR TYPE IN THE FOLLOWING:
THE OCCULT MAGIC OF THE JEWISH CABALA BY MR. TEXE MARRS. ALSO LOG ONTO michellesantos.wordpress.com and read her article:
DEPROGRAM: ALL PEACE SIGNS ARE SATANIC LUCIFERIAN SYMBOLS. AS A CONCERNED CHRISTIAN YOU BETTER READ THESE ARTICLES CAREFULLY. THE LENS OF A CAMERA NEVER LIE.
If you really want to know what Jonathan Cahn's teachings are as well as his theology, I strongly urge you to log onto the following website: deceptioninthechurch.com. At the home page, click on the tab marked book reviews. On the following page you will see letters a-z. Click on the letter h. On the h section, you will see several reviews of the Harbinger.
Read the article and review done by Mrs. Berit Kjos. Mrs. Kjos provides indisputable evidence into Jonathan Cahn's mystical views and theology under the article "the Zohar, the Kabbalah, & the Harbinger. Make sure you watch the video "the Zohar Speaks". This is the smoking gun and the video Jonathan Cahn does not want the world to see! It is not an optical illusion. YOU CAN ALSO VIEW THIS VIDEO @ THE FOLLOWING WEBSITE: ZOHAR-GOLGOTHA 3 minutes & 8 seconds on You Tube. I strongly recommend every concerned christian to read the following article:
KABBALAH: GETTING BACK TO THE GARDEN by MARCIA MONTENEGRO
CHRISTIAN RESEARCH INSTITUTE: equip.org/articles/kabbalah-getting-back-to-the-garden.
The Harbinger is not based on sound orthodox christian theology. It is a blend of JEWISH MYSTICISM, camouflaged with Christian Apologetics. If you doubt me, read it for yourself. Turn to pages 240 and 242. In fact, read the entire last chapter of The Harbinger for a broader picture. Also notice the title of his dvd documentary and how it is worded:
Isaiah 9:10 Judgement. A Biblical Prophecy DECODED by Jonathan Cahn. THE WORD DECODED IS KABBALISTIC TERMINOLOGY. For the evidence to SUBSTANTIATE THESE CLAIMS SEE DECODING THE PAST-SECRETS OF THE KABBALAH(2009) ON YOU TUBE by The History Channel (45mins). I also highly RECOMMEND you watch on You Tube:
"THE JEWISH TALMUD EXPOSED" & CONFESSIONS OF A FORMER JEW" by Brother NATHANAEL KAPNER. You MUST also see this SHOCKING video on YOU TUBE "SATANIC TALMUD" by XLIVES.COM 10MIN & 19 SECONDS. Also I highly recommend you purchase: "THE SECRET HISTORY OF THE ZOHAR" BY MICHAEL BERG and JUDAISM'S STRANGE GODS by MICHAEL HOFFMAN @AMAZON.COM.
In Dave James newly released book "The Harbinger: Fact or Fiction", in chapter 17 "The Tenth Seal", Mr. James discusses very profoundly the mystical qualities of Mr. Cahn's kabbalistic theology. I make the following quote from page 198 of the same chapter:
" In the July 3, 2012 interview when Brannon Howse expressed his deep concern about Cahn using mystical sources for his messages, Cahn tried to justify his practice by noting that the Apostle Paul also referred to the teaching of pagan philosophers in his address to the Athenians(Acts 17:22-31). He went on to suggest that Paul would have been"crucified" by discernment ministries for using a hymn to Zeus and because of his associations.(WHAT ASSOCIATIONS? THAT PAUL BELIEVED THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST AND GREEK MYTHOLOGY HAVE A COMMON GROUND FOR SHARING THE WORD OF GOD?)
That is a red herring. The two situations are completely different. Paul's approach is nothing like Cahn's. Cahn refers to the mystical rabbinical writings POSITIVELY, saying that because God had inspired them his church should "listen to the rabbis". He presents the Zohar as something that can be studied and it's depths plumbed for hidden mysteries like he had just revealed for the first time.
In stark contrast, Paul immediately tells his audience that what they have been taught by their poets about the unknown god they worship is completely wrong. He does not suggest that their sayings contain hidden mysteries that were inspired by God and that he had just discovered for the first time. Paul never implies that the Athenians should listen to these men. Rather he refers to a single point of agreement(we all come from God) to denounce their idols. From Romans we understand that the knowledge of that truth is not a hidden mystery but has rather been made plain to everyone through both the conscience and the creation(Romans 1:18-2:16).
The above theological statement is further substantiated from the Apostle Paul's letters to his Greek converts in the following biblical passages:
1 Corinthians 1:17- 31, 1 Corinthians 2:1-16 & Colossians 2:8 NKJV.
FOR A MORE IN DEPTH STUDY OF ACTS 17:22-31 READ THE ARTICLE WRITTEN BY
R.K. McGREGOR WRIGHT, TH.M.,PH.D. "PAUL'S PURPOSE AT ATHENS AND THE PROBLEM OF COMMON GROUND" PARTS 1,2,& 3.
The Link is as follows: dtl.org/apologetics/wright/athens.
Anyone who believes that the Harbinger is based solely on the inerrant word of God will be subjected to a great delusion. I am in a position to know. I was once a member of Beth Israel for many years. My statements are not about ministry bashing. I am here to expose the fact that Jonathan Cahn for many years has been utilizing mystical hebrew writings such as the Zohar and the Jewish Talmud to supplement and substantiate some of his teachings and sermons. THE ZOHAR MEANS "RADIANCE or SPLENDOR". IT IS THE PREMIER TEXT OF OCCULT KNOWLEDGE WITHIN THE KABBALAH and a basis for laws instituted by NEW AGE RABBINICAL SAGES. The Zohar is a synthesis of the OCCULT GNOSIS of PHARAONIC EGYPT & ANCIENT BABYLON. And he claims that there is absolutely nothing wrong with quoting from the Zohar. That many apologists, bible commentators etc do this(see standupforthetruth.com on his most recent interview question #6 June 2012).
Ofcourse they do. ONLY professing christian kabbalists and christian gnostics use the Zohar as a reference manual in their QUEST FOR ESOTERIC KNOWLEDGE by decoding the past like Mr. Cahn does; in search of so called biblical mysteries which just don't exist within the sacred text.
The Zohar is the MYSTICAL CLASSICAL TEXT USED BY THE KABBALISTS. This practice by Jonathan Cahn is the equivalent of many christians who today attempt to interpret bible prophecies by using the Quatrains of Nostradamus. I was there one night at Beth Israel several years ago, when he preached that sermon "the Zohar Speaks". I heard and saw him say 2 times to the congregation, that he believed these new age rabbinical sages who wrote the Zohar(Rabbi Simeon bar Yochai and Rabbi Moses De Leon etc) and writings were put there by the Holy Spirit . BUT THE INERRANT WORD OF GOD THROUGH HIS SPIRIT PLAINLY STATES THAT SUCH MEN WILL ARISE IN THE LAST DAYS SEE 1 TIMOTHY 4:1 & GALATIANS 1:8-9.
In standupforthetruth.com, Mr. Cahn in question#5 was aked: "One critic said that since The Harbinger speaks of MYSTERIES being revealed-does this have to do with GNOSTIC beliefs?
ANSWERE: A very confused view. Unless we want to call the Apostle Paul a gnostic, SINCE HE ALSO SPOKE OF MYSTERIES. It's precisely the opposite. The Gnostics believed in knowledge that was to be kept secret, to stay a mystery. God is the one who reveals mysteries. THE HARBINGER DOES LIKEWISE-IT REVEALS MYSTERIES. If there are no mysteries, then we know everything there is to know. But we don't. And God, by his Spirit, is to lead us to continual insight, and show us things we don't know.
REBUTTAL: I make the following quotation from the book "CORRECTING THE CULTS"
from pages 108-109(authors Norman L. Geisler & Ron Rhodes apologist)
Mathew 13:10-11: DID JESUS TEACH THAT WE NEED TO SEEK A HIDDEN, SECONDARY(esoteric) MEANING IN SCRIPTURE, AS NEW AGERS SAY?
Misinterpretation: Some New Agers appeal to Mathew 13:10-11 in an attempt to show that we should seek secret and hidden(esoteric) meaning in scripture. Jesus is portrayed being in front of a multitude composed of both believers and unbelievers. He did not attempt to separate the believers from the unbelievers and then instruct only the believers. Rather, he constructed his teaching in such a way that believers would understand what he said but unbelievers would not-by using parables. Then, after teaching one such parable, a disciple asked Jesus: "Why do you speak to the people in parables"? (see Mathew 13:10). Jesus answered: "THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SECRETS(OR MYSTERIES) OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN HAS BEEN GIVEN TO YOU(believers) BUT NOT TO THEM(unbelievers)
Mathew 13:11.
IN OTHER WORDS, JESUS IS CLEARLY STATING THE MYSTERIES OF GOD'S KINGDOM AND OF HUMAN HISTORY PAST, PRESENT, & FUTURE HAVE ALREADY BEEN REVEALED BY GOD'S INERRANT WORD! NOT BY SEEKING HIDDEN, SECONDARY OR ESOTERIC MEANING IN SCRIPTURE LIKE MR. JONATHAN CAHN DOES IN THE HARBINGER AND THROUGH HIS EXTRA-BIBLICAL THEOLOGY.
The Zohar falls under the category of pseudepigrapha (see JEWISHENCYCLOPEDIA.com). The Zohar is a pseudepigraphic work which PRETENDS to be a REVELATION FROM GOD communicated through Rabbi Simeon ben Yohai to the latter's select disciples in the form of a COMMENTARY on the first 5 books of Moses/Torah. I qoute the following definition from Dr. Randall Price's book " Searching for the Original Bible" page 136 the following: "the term pseudepigrapha literally means falsely entitled. It refers to a collection of some 63 documents written between 250BC-200AD by hellenistic jews. Each book was written under a psuedonym whose work was not part of the canonical hebrew bible. No psuedepigrapha texts are CITED or EXPLICITLY referred to by any biblical authors of the New Testament(and I will add neither by Jesus himself)".
I also make the following quote from Bob Larson's book "WORLD RELIGIONS & ALTERNATIVE SPIRITUALITY" pages 291-292 in regards to the Zohar & the Kabbalah:
"At the core of jewish myticism is the practice of ESOTERIC DISCIPLINES that tap into the secret wisdom that can involve ascent to and unitive experiences with the divine realm. Contemporary teachers of the ZOHAR/KABBALAH say the emphasis of Kabbalah should be on putting it's principles into action rather than worrying about theology and the nature of GOD. And as is often the case with New Age religions, the emphasis is on what is in it for us. In the case of the Zohar/Kabbalah, it's promoters claim it will bring people peace,joy and fulfillment without any worries about moral codes like the 10 Commandments" end of quote.
With regards to Mr. Cahn's use of the Jewish Talmud, what exactly is so HERETICAL about it which is never disclosed? It is considered HOLY WRIT for the Jews. The Talmud SUPERCEDES the OLD TESTAMENT in authority for the Jews. And the Talmud is the MOST RACIST, HATE MONGERING, BLASPHEMOUS BOOK the world has ever known! The Satanic verses of the Talmud can be classified into 3 categories: 1) JEWISH SUPREMACY 2)HATRED TOWARDS THE GOYS(GENTILES) &
3) BLASPHEMIES AGAINST JESUS CHRIST, THE VIRGIN MARY & ALL CHRISTIANS.
But the Messiah Yeshua(Jesus) censored the ORAL LAW(TALMUD) when he said
"BY THE TRADITIONS OF YOUR ELDERS(PHARISEES) YOU MAKE VOID THE WORD OF GOD MATHEW 15.
For a more indepth study of the Jewish Talmud go to the following link:
realjewnews.com and look up the article "SATANIC VERSES OF THE JEWISH TALMUD" by Brother Nathanael Kapner.
The HARBINGER STRONGLY RESEMBLES ARTIFICIAL DIVINATION. ARTIFICIAL DIVINATION depends on the skill of the agent in reading & interpreting certain SIGNS called OMENS/HARBINGERS! IT IS MY PERSONAL BELIEF THAT THIS IS HOW THE HARBINGER MAY HAVE BEEN DEVISED.
God's word CONDEMS SUCH OCCULTIC PRACTICES....WHO PRACTICE DIVINATION....DEUTERONOMY 18:10.
1 Thes: 5:21 & Acts 17:11 commands us to test all things. This is not an option. Blind acceptance of any theological view, simply because it was set forth by a respected brother or minister is very dangerous and detrimental to the Body of Christ to say the least.
Paul in Galatians 1:8 exhorts the Body of Christ as follows: NOW EVEN IF WE OR AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN SHOULD DECLARE TO YOU ANOTHER GOSPEL OUTSIDE OF WHAT WE HAVE DECLARED TO YOU, HE WILL BE CURSED.
If the body of Christ is ready to EMBRACE ANOTHER GOSPEL CORRUPTED WITH JEWISH MYSTICISM, THEY CAN HAVE IT. After spending more than 7 years at Beth Israel, I have no doubt that the MESSIANIC JEWISH MOVEMENT are involved with DOCTRINES & RELIGIOUS PRACTICES that are INCONSISTENT with God's Word and are CONTRARY to HIS WILL FOR THE BODY OF CHRIST.
Log onto the following link: jesus-messiah.com and read the article "DANGERS OF THE FALSE MESSIANIC MOVEMENT by Dr. G. RECKART- PASTOR.
Everything that is being shared with you ultimately led to my resignation as a member from Beth Israel. If you want to ignore my warnings, feel free to do so at your own peril.
It is advisable for Mr. Jonathan Cahn and any other staff member within his ministry who are in possesion of these OCCULTIC WORKS OF LITERATURE( i.e. Mr. JOSE J. BERNAL THE AUTHOR OF THE BOOK: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE HARBINGER- RELEASE DATE OCT 1, 2013) to follow the example of the EPHESIANS in ACTS 19:19 and burn your occultic books in a BONFIRE instead of trying to justify your heretical doctrines in the name of APOLOGETICS. Galatians 5: 19 "FOR THE WORKS OF THE FLESH ARE WELL KNOWN.....VERSE 20....HERESIES.....VERSE 21.....AS I HAVE TOLD YOU BEFORE AND I SAY TO YOU NOW, THOSE WHO PRACTICE SUCH THINGS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
"It is not for nothing that the authoritative edition of the Talmud is known as the Babylonian Talmud. As Christians misled by their Judaizing preachers & popes are increasingly consulting Jewish rabbinical sources for a "PURER" understanding of the Old Testament, they are unknowningly consulting the OCCULT.
Judaism is the religion of the Pharisees and the patrimony of Babylon from where the Talmudic & Kabbalistic traditions of Judaism ultimately derive. Orthodox Judaism's other sacred book, the Kabbalah( THE ZOHAR BEING IT'S PREMIER TEXT OF OCCULT KNOWLEDGE) is filled with astrological teachings, fortune telling, gematria, necromancy & DEMONOLOGY.
Orthodox Rabbis place curses, cast spells & imagine they have powers greater than God, derived from their study of the Sefer Yezriah(a book of Kabbalistic Magic). Christians are TRAFFICKING in Babylonian Paganism when they DEFER to the Rabbis of Judaism" MICHAEL HOFFMAN.
Every christian across America who have read Mr. Cahn's book and concluded that it is a PROPHETIC WORD from God to this nation, need to seriously re-examine your beliefs. Jewish Gnosticism is being IMPORTED very SUBTLELY into mainstream Christianity. YOUR ETERNAL DESTINY MAY BE IN JEOPARDY!
"EXTERMINATION OF THE CHRISTIANS IS A NECESSARY SACRIFICE"-ZOHAR, SHEMOTH
READ THE HARBINGER: FACT OR FICTION BY DAVID JAMES.
FOR MORE INFORMATION ON THE ZOHAR, SCROLL DOWN AND READ MY POST UNDER THE FIRST COMMENT DATED 8-26-2013.
Initial post: Aug 26, 2013 5:08:34 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 11, 2013 5:08:58 AM PDT
CONCERNING JOSE J. BERNAL AUTHOR OF THE BOOK THE TRUTH BEHIND THE HARBINGER:
Jose J. Bernal says:
The only thing that I would use the Zohar for and the Talmud would be for the same use that eminent Messianic Jews such as Dr. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, Dr. Michael Rygelnik, Dr. Michael Brown, Dr. Mitch Glazer, and many more, such as Pastor and Messianic Rabbi Jonathan Cahn would use such works for; to affirm from them the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is called in Apologetics "the fair use of a hostile witness" to affirm a specific matter.
Jose J. Bernal says:
Isn't it amazing how God uses Paul in Acts 17 to teach the pagans from their own writings on Mar's Hill and how in Apologetics even the Book of Zohar unwittingly supports the Gospel because it has been used by faithful witness Apologists as a "hostile witness" of the Gospel? Only God can do such things; turn something like the Book of Zohar into a tool that bears witness that Jesus is the Messiah! Thank you.
THINK TWICE before you decide to visit Mr. Bernal's website, THE PEPSTER'S POST: A VOICE IN CYBERSPACE. Be advised that Mr. Bernal is a strong advocate of the following occultic literary works: The Babylonian Talmud, the Zohar, & other Rabbincal Writings etc. I stumbled across this back in April 30th, 2013 when I decided to check out his website and profile. These occultic books were listed under his stockpile of favorite books. Ever since April 30th he modified his list of favorite books to list only rabbinical writings. These rabbinical writings were written by NEW AGE RABBINICAL SAGES, members of an occultic religion, Orthodox Judaism.
ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL WHO GOES BY THE NAME OF JP COLLADO WHO HAS BEEN RECENTLY ACTIVE ON THIS DISCUSSION BOARD, IS A STRONG ADVOCATE OF THIS SATANIC BOOK THE ZOHAR. ON AUGUST 26, 2012 HE MADE THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT AND I QUOTE:
....THE ZOHAR, A HEBREW SOURCE THAT ACKNOWLEDGES THE ONE TRUE GOD OF THE BIBLE AND NO OTHER". REALLY JP?
What you need to know about these occultic writings:
Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai was the author of the Zohar. He was one of the great Talmudic scholars of the ORAL LAW of the second century A.D. The Roman Emperor of that time placed a contract on the head of Rabbi Yochai. Fearing for his life, Rabbi Yochai & his son Rabbi Elazar took refuge in a cage in Pequi'in, Israel. There for 13 years father & son buried themselves everyday in the ground up to their necks in an effort to subjugate the distractions of the human body. It was during this time that they SUPPOSEDLY recieved instructions in the deepest mysteries of the Torah from Prophet Elijah(YEAH RIGHT). These teachings would later become the foundations of the Zohar.
Also be advised, that Rabbi Simeon bar Yochai ENDORSED the practice of PEDERASTY as recorded in The Babylonian Talmud to his followers!
For INDISPUTABLE EVIDENCE to the above statements please go to YOU TUBE and watch the following documentaries:
1) DECODING THE PAST-SECRETS OF THE KABBALAH by the History Channel 2009 45 mins
2) ZIONISM & CHRISTIANITY, AN UNHOLY ALLIANCE by Ted Pike 1hr & 35 min
3)ISRAELI TERRORISM AND THE TALMUD 7 MINS & 15 seconds
4) KABBALAH TALMUD ZIONISM PERVERSE PERPETUATED EVIL IMF NWO PARTS 1-3
Also the teaching "THE ZOHAR SPEAKS" by Jonathan Cahn is based on OCCULTIC DOCTRINE. It's ORIGINS are from the
KABBALAH/ZOHAR. It is being widely taught by KABBALIST in their KABBALISTIC CENTERS. For INDISPUTABLE EVIDENCE log onto YOU TUBE & on the search bar type: GOLGOTHA & JESUS by BILLY PHILLIPS 23 mins & 48 seconds. Also on You Tube in the search bar type: Zohar-Golgotah by Jonathan Cahn 3mins & 8 seconds to see the correlation with what is being taught in KABBALISTIC CENTERS.
Whether Mr. Bernal or Mr. Cahn choose to admit it or not, any professing christian that is consulting with rabbinical sources as listed above, in search for a so called "PURER" understanding of the Old Testament in the name of apologetics as they previously have claimed, is consulting with the occult! Christians who engage in such religious practices for the purpose of seeking support from rabbinical exegesis, are trafficking in Babylonian Paganism/the occult when they defer to the Rabbis of Orthodox Judaism. THEY ARE IN ESSENCE IMPORTING JEWISH GNOSTICISM INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST.
IT IS ADVISABLE FOR MR. JOSE BERNAL & JONATHAN CAHN TO FOLLOW THE EXAMPLE OF THE EPHESIANS IN ACTS 19:19 AND BURN YOUR OCCULTIC BOOKS IN A BIG BONFIRE; INSTEAD OF TRYING TO JUSTIFY YOUR HERETICAL DOCTRINES BY MEANS OF VERBAL HAIRSPLITTING, WHICH AMOUNTS TO NOTHING MORE THAN A SUBTLE FORM OF SUBTERFUGE.
"EXTERMINATION OF THE CHRISTIANS IS A NECESSARY SACRIFICE" -ZOHAR, SHEMOTH
READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY AND WHAT I AM ABOUT TO DISCLOSE ABOUT THE AUTHOR OF THE ZOHAR, RABBI SIMEON BEN YOHAI.
So that you may better understand the CORRUPT DOCTRINES, MORAL DECAY and background of Rabbi Simeon Ben Yohai, I will quote the following passages and practices condoned by Rabbi Yohai to his jewish followers from YEBAMOTH 60B WHICH LEGALIZED SEXUAL RELATIONS between jewish priests and 3 year old girls: It was taught by Rabbi Simeon Ben Yohai who stated: A proselyte who is under the age of 3 years old and 1 day is PERMIITED TO MARRY A PRIEST. For it is said, but all the women children that have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves, and Phineas who was a priest (the footnote says) was with them.
KETHUBOTH 11B: SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH CHILDREN
When a grownup man has sexual intercourse with a little girl, it is nothing. For when the girl is less than 3 years old, it is as if one puts his finger into the eye(in other words her virginity will return back to her). But when a small boy has intercourse with a grownup woman, he makes her as a girl who was injured by a piece of wood.
BABYLONIAN TALMUD SANHEDRIN 54b
".....A child less than 9 years old can not be the subject of SODOMY"!
This is the most horrifying example of PHARISAIC moral perversion, the LEGALIZATION OF PEDERASTY OR THE SEXUAL PERVERSION OF CHILDREN PRACTICED IN THE DAYS AND BEYOND THE TIMES OF RABBI SIMEON BEN YOHAI, PRINCIPLE AUTHOR OF THE ZOHAR!
RABBI SIMEON BEN YOHAI'S RACIAL BIGOTRY:
Simeon Ben Yohai is PRE-EMINENTLY THE ANTI-GENTILE TEACHER. In a collection of 3 sayings of his...is found the expression, often quoted by anti-semites, Tob shebe-goyim harog, meaning "THE BEST OF THE GENTILES DESERVES TO BE KILLED"! A.Z. 26B, TOSEPHOTH. This utterance has been felt by jews to be due to an exaggerated antipathy on the part of a fanatic whose life experiences may furnish an explanation for his animosity; hence in the various versions the reading has been altered. "The best among the Egyptians" being generally substituted.
IT IS APPALLING THAT TODAY WE HAVE MEN AND WOMEN WHO CLAIM TO BE FAITHFUL MINISTERS OF THE GOSPEL, WHO ARE RESORTING TO JUDAIC RABBINICAL WRITINGS, WRITTEN BY MEN WHO WERE SEXUAL PREDATORS OF THE INNOCENT AND RACIAL BIGOTS IN ORDER TO SUPPLEMENT THEIR TEACHINGS AND SERMONS IN THE NAME OF APOLOGETICS. THIS IS A SHOCKING MISREPRESENTATION OF THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST TO SAY THE LEAST!
THIS OCCULTIC BOOK THE ZOHAR, NEVER HAS AND NEVER WILL BARE ANY WITNESS TO THE GOSPEL UNWITTINGLY OR OTHERWISE. THAT IS A CLAIM WHICH HAS NO BIBLICAL BASIS. A THEOLOGICAL FABRICATION BASED ON THE FIGMENT OF SOMEONE'S IMAGINATION.
The following excerpt is taken from the book "ISRAEL OUR DUTY...OUR DILEMMA by Author Ted Winston Pike pages 101-102:
"What really excited them(THE RABBIS) was that the Kabbalah preached revolution. It told them that they no longer wait upon an inscrutable God to GRANT THEM THEIR MESSIAH & world dominion at his pleasure. Instead, since they in effect were divine, THEY COULD BRING IN THE MESSIANIC AGE THEMSELVES. By the employment of kabbalistic magic they could appropiate material gain as a result of their own efforts and PRODUCE A MESSIAH TO RULE OVER THEM (cf Univ. Jewish Encyclopedia p615). Although Kabbalah had been developed and practiced in varying forms since the time of CHRIST, it was not until 1300 A.D. that a SINGLE SOURCE BOOK OF KABBALAH WAS PRODUCED, THE ZOHAR! After it's publication it became the greatest importance in spreading the practice of Kabbalah throughout Europe".
TED W. PIKE CONTINUES ON PAGE 103: " The Kabbalah at this time was a Babylonian brew which included such occult features as REINCARNATION, NECROMANCY, CONJURATION, ASTRAL PROJECTION, COOPERATION WITH DEMONS, ASTROLOGY, NUMEROLOGY, AND A VAST SYSTEM FOR THE USE OF CHARMS, AMULETS & INCANTATIONS". In short, most of what was distinctive of BABYLONIAN & EGYPTIAN SORCERY WAS INCLUDED IN THE ZOHAR! Even today virtually all occult systems (especially THEOSOPHICAL ONES) and practices, including WITCHCRAFT & SATANISM, borrow heavily from the KABBALAH(AS PRESERVED IN THE ZOHAR) in their rituals and symbolism".
DON'T ALLOW YOURSELF TO BE A GULLIBLE CHRISTIAN!
---THE FOLLOWING ARE SOME BASELESS ACCUSATIONS THAT JOSE J. BERNAL IS USING AGAINST ME AS A PLOY TO DETER ME FROM SHARING THE TRUTH ABOUT THESE OCCULTIC WRITINGS I HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING ABOUT MAINLY THE ZOHAR, THE BABYLONIAN TALMUD, & OTHER RABBINICAL WRITINGS. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH JEWISH HATRED OR ANTI-SEMTICISM. ON THE CONTRARY MY CONTENTION FROM THE VERY BEGIINING HAS BEEN THAT ANY CHRISTIAN WHO DEFERS TO THE RABBINICAL WRITINGS( EXEGESIS) OF THE RABBIS FOR A PURER UNDERSTANDING OF THE OLD TESTAMENT IS TRAFFICKING IN BABYLONIAN PAGANISM AND DABBLING WITH THE OCCULT.
THESE ARE THE FALSE ALLEGATIONS JOSE J. BERNAL HAS MADE AGAINST ME & TED PIKE:
This is why you are an Anti-Semite, because as your writing shows, you impute sin exclusively to Jews and not to yourself or anypone else, except those who idsagree with you. The man you write about above is a rabid Anti-Semite and he has poisoned your mind and prejudiced your opinion about Jews in general and Israel in particular.
you have just been discovered for what you are. an anti-semitic hater of the jewish people, and anyone who hates jews is accursed, according to god's word in genesis 12.
Ted W. Pike is a rabid Anti-Semite and Jew-hater, who has attacked the Jewish people and Judaism, and has been cited by the Anti-Defamation League as a dangerous demogogue and Anti-Semite. Your use of his literature here speaks volumes about you.
this is a copied and paste spam of virilent anti-semitic bilge and has absolutely nothing to do with either the harbinger or the truth about the harbinger. i have repeatedly said and so has jonathan cahn, that neither he or i believe in the talmud, the book of zohar, the teachings of the kaballah based on these, but have proved from them that even they show that jesus is the messiah. i and others here have repeatedly explained this to you, but you continue to copy and paste this absurd bilge.
You just exposed yourself as a rabid Jew-hating Anti-Semite, truthskr. Those who hate Jews cannot love Christ, because He is the King of the Jews, and King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
MALIGNING OTHER MINISTERS OF THE GOSPEL AND THEIR MINISTRIES:
David James, T.A. McMahon, Brannon Howse, Jimmy DeYoung, et al; are today's version of a cult within the body of Christ, put there to discredit legitimate ministries, and destroy the lives, service, and livelihood of God's servants. I am convinced of this, inasmuch as these people have misappropriated the good work of Christian Apologetics and have added to it Gossip, Innuendo, Guilt by Association, Misrepresentation, Libel, Slander, Bearing False Witness against another, Speaking Evil of other Christians, Lying in wait to stalk specific Christians of their choosing to find fault - as they're doing with Jonathan Cahn for over a year and a half - and wholesale acts and behavior unbecoming of people who are supposed to be ambassadors of Christ - all under the umbrella of "Discernment" - which is a twisting of 1Corinthians 12:10 and misapplication of the sign gift of the Holy Spirit imparted to believers to discern spirits - not get into months long tirades against servants of God, and stalking legitimate ministers (such as Jonathan Cahn) to find fault and write about in order to discredit and destroy such ministries.
In the words of Ted Pike with regards to the TRUE DEFINITION OF ANTI-SEMITISM I QUOTE MR. PIKE:
"ANTI-SEMITISM IS THE RACISTIC BELIEF THAT JEWS ARE, BY VIRTUE OF BIRTH, DEGENERATE, GRASPING, OR SUBVERSIVE. THE TERM HOWEVER, IS ERRONEOUSLY APPLIED TO THOSE WHO CRITICIZE THE BEHAVIOR OF JEWS OR THE STATE OF ISRAEL" page 336 from Mr. Pike's book ISRAEL OUR DUTY OUR DILEMMA.
Posted on Sep 13, 2013 2:47:37 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Sep 22, 2013 2:16:50 PM PDT
IS TED PIKE ANTI-SEMITIC?
By John S. Torell
It was with great sadness that I read a letter from Ted Pike which I am including below in which he tells about a boycott he is receiving from the mainstream Christian leadership. I have never met Ted in person but we became good friends back in the mid 1980's and we have exchanged material we each produced. He has received The Dove magazine and The Flaming Sword newsletter from me and we received his newsletters. We carry his book, Israel, Our Duty and Dilemma, which was a bold move on his part to let Christians know the truth about our relationship with the political State of Israel.
Most mainstream Christians are indoctrinated as Christian Zionists, whereby they believe that if a Christian does not bless the political state of Israel, then God will curse them. If you ask a Christian where this is found in the Bible they will turn and refer to the blessing of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:16-18), but if the text is carefully read, it never states anything about the State of Israel, and in the New Testament, Paul states that the seed of Abraham are the born again believers in Christ (Romans 4:11-16; 9:1-8). Paul makes it very clear in that Jews and Gentiles alike must come through Christ in order to be counted as heirs of Abraham (Galatians 3:16-29).
According to the American Jewish leadership, Ted Pike is anti-Semitic but let's be fair and define exactly what anti-Semitism is and is not. According to the World Zionist Federation, the ADL and all other Jewish organizations, an anti-Semite is any person who does not support the political state of Israel, is critical of Jewish policies or exposes historical facts which are not kind to Jewish people.
It is interesting to note that the mainstream Christian leadership in the United States doesn't care if Christian researchers examine different religions like Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism. Books on these subjects are readily available in Christian bookstores and many of these stores are owned and operated by American Jews. So it doesn't produce any problems if books are very critical of different religions. Christian researchers examining and writing critical books and articles about the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and other sects that have deviated from Christianity do not raise any concern because the Christian bookstores make hefty profits on these sales.
But if a Christian researcher decides to investigate Judaism, where it came from, what they have been doing in the past and what they are doing now, this is unacceptable to the American Jewish leadership and they have installed a great fear into all mainstream Christian leaders about the threat of being labeled as anti-Semitic. They know that if they are labeled as such, their finances will dry up and they will be boycotted and driven into isolation. If a minister is on the radio and television, it will not take long before he is forced off the air. No publishing houses will print his books and the media will never mention his name. As far as the world knows, the person will no longer exist.
Ordinary Christians are clueless about all this. If you're reading this and this is new to you, I know you find this hard to believe but I challenge you to contact Christian ministries and ask them why they are not talking about Ted Pike and giving him credit for what he has done. Ask them what Ted has done that is so horrible to warrant being labeled an anti-Semite? I don't believe that any ministry will dare to respond to your questions because they have no answers and are operating out of fear of American Jewish power.
Please read Ted's letter below and then start checking things out. I have written a series of articles called, Dancing Around the Golden Calf. Please read them and start to think, pray and do your own research, and you will come to the same conclusion that Judaism is the cradle for the coming Anti-Christ. Send links to all your friends and let's break the monopoly of power of the Jewish leadership and expose them.
TED PIKE
I don't hate the Jewish people nor does Ted Pike. Neither one of us hates the Muslim's, Hindu's and Buddhist's. On the contrary, we love all people and our aim is to present Jesus Christ and see them born again. This is a hate crime to the Jews and for this Ted is considered anti-Semitic. True anti-Semitism can be defined as hating the Jews by not giving them the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
C.H. Spurgeon once said, "If sinners will be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies. And if they will perish, let them perish with our arms around their knees, imploring them to stay. If hell must be filled, at least let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go there unwarned and unsprayed for." To be called an anti-Semite by the Jews for standing up for truth is like the pot calling the kettle black. As such, we will continue to expose the future Anti-Christ system which will eventually take over the world.
Ted Pike is not anti-Semitic. He is a Christian researcher exposing the evil deeds of Jewish leaders as they try to further their agenda while keeping the Gentiles ignorant and happy.
The threat" of Ted Pike
St. Paul asked, "Have I therefore become your enemy by telling you the truth?" (Gal. 4:16) I am only a "threat" to deep, habitual error that leads evangelical leaders and their followers into unholy alliance with spiritual and political wickedness. I testify that they and their fathers are guilty of holding to an unbiblical policy of unconditional support of Israel. This has led to carte blanche approval of more than 60 years of the most horrendous human rights abuses against the Palestinians. Their inflexible policy of non-criticism of Jewish supremacy, including its ascendant control of media, government, finance, education, etc., as well as hate crimes laws, has effectively built the walls of the coming Judaic New World order, "Babylon the Great." (Jews Confirm Big Media Is Jewish) Their refusal to criticize matters Jewish is responsible for allowing ADL to attain legislative dominion over Congress. http://www.truthtellers.org/alerts/jewsconfirmbigmedia.html
I bring the accusation that they have not guided and guarded their Christian flock as true and faithful shepherds. They have feared Jewish supremacist wolves more than they love their lambs. They flee for fear of the Jews rather than lay down their lives (and reputations) to protect the flock God has entrusted to them.
It's debatable who fears me most: evangelical leaders or ADL! But, as we saw through my initiation of massive protest last week (leading directly to acceptance of the Brownback amendment), all I have done has borne good fruit - not evil. The Brownback amendment will help protect free speech in the most vicious, freedom-destroying legislation ever passed by Congress.
Is Ted Pike Anti-Semitic?
I have never uttered an anti-Semitic statement -- because I am not anti-Semitic. Anti-Semitism is the racist belief that all Jews are genetically conspiratorial, degenerate, or corruptive. Hitler believed that. He thought the world would be a much better place without their existence and took steps to actually bring it about.
I believe the problem with Jewish supremacists in media, government, finance and Israel is that they, like their literal or spiritual forefathers the Pharisees, have made many, many bad moral decisions.
As a result, I, like the Hebrew prophets, must rebuke them (or any sinner) as the Lord leads. I do this in hope they will repent, as did St. Paul, who said, "My heart's desire and prayer is that Israel be saved." (Rom. 10:1) If I fail to reprove or warn, or if I do not speak the whole, undiminished truth as God directs, I jeopardize my eternal soul. (Ez. 33, Jer. 26:22)
If I am anti-Semitic, then Jesus, John the Baptist, and all the prophets were raving anti-Semites! They scathingly reproved all Jewish sinners, especially those abusing high authority. Thus far, God has not led me to criticize evil Jewish leaders in language as searing and condemnatory as Jesus used in His incendiary attacks on the Pharisees!
IN ORDER TO READ THE UNEDITED VERSION OF THIS ARTICLE LOG ONTO: eaec.org/bibleansweres/ted-pike-antisemitism.
WATCH ON YOU TUBE THE FOLLOWING VIDEO: FARAH CALLS TED PIKE A LYING ANTI-SEMITE (OCTOBER 2011-8 MINUTES & 20 SECONDS).
In reply to an earlier post on Sep 24, 2013 8:32:47 PM PDT
If this isn't a hard on for someone, then what is?
Posted on Sep 28, 2013 12:55:35 PM PDT
PDT
Nonsense...Rabbi Jonathan Cahn is a modern day prophet and is calling America back to God!
Posted on Oct 8, 2013 1:52:36 PM PDT
Blimey, what a rant. You are a paranoid fool, and even if it was true, I would not be taking advice from someone like you who rants like this.
In reply to an earlier post on Oct 14, 2013 9:41:26 PM PDT
Rafael, I agree that talmud, zohar and other writtings are not something I want to get into & won't.
My question is this, I try to adhear to scripture and what it teaches - we observe the sabbath & feasts of the Lord.
Do you see any problems with believers doing this?
Just curious
Posted on Oct 15, 2013 10:45:46 AM PDT
Last edited by the author 6 hours ago
referring to Rafael's original comment:
Well, this makes absolutely no sense..I think this should get a kook alert
Your post: Oct 15, 2013 5:02:09 PM PDT
Rafael has copied and pasted what you read here and tried to defame me and Pastor and Messianic Rabbi Jonathan Cahn, calling us Kabbalists, promoters of the Zohar, and trying to convince people that The Harbinger, The Harbinger Decoded, The Truth About The Harbinger (my book), and The Harbinger Companion and Study Guide promote the Occult and mysticism, when they do not.
I should know. I've known Rabbi Cahn for over ten years. He is not a Jewish Mystic or Occultist, or Kabbalist, nor is he a Gnostic. He is a Messianic Jewish believer in the Messiah of Israel and teaches mainline Judeo-Christian teachings, that is teachings based upon the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament. By God's grace, calling, and election in the Lord Yeshua/Jesus, I teach at the Arise and Shine Academy at the Beth Israel Jerusalem Center in Wayne, NJ, where Rabbi Cahn shepherds.
Neither he nor I are any of the mischaracterizations that this crank by the name of Rafael calls us. I would caution everyone to be discerning and remember that it is the wolf in sheep's clothing who attack the sheep. Sheep do not attack sheep. Wolves attack sheep. When you see someone who says he is a Christian attack another Christian or other Christians repeatedly by accusing him/them as Rafael does of something that he/they do not involve himself/themselves in, you know who you are dealing with. There is only one accuser of the brethren before God, and his servants make it a pretense to appear as ministers of light, when they are actually ministers of darkness and all falsehoods. Of course, as in the other discussions, the accuser of the brethren manifests himself in his servant Rafael to bear false witness, confuse the body, cause dissension, and bear false witness.
I challenge Rafael to present one shred of evidence that Rabbi Cahn or I are any of the things he claims we are without knowing us. This is the rantings of a maniac. He makes up a quote of an imaginary ex-member or visitor to Beth Israel who just about parrots what he says, and actually thinks that anyone is going not to see through this sophstry! Amazing. We are dealing with a fool or worse a raving lunatic.
I have repeatedly told Rafael that neither Pastor Cahn or myself belief any of the nonsense he posts and claims we believe, but he keeps copying and pasting it all over the place. This is call defamation, and in the face of evidence contrary to it, it is nothing short of libel and bearing false witness against not just a neighbor, but against a brother/brethren. This is a breach of one of God's commandments.
Everyone will note that I do write anything personal regarding this person, yet he without knowing either Rabbi Cahn or myself, has posted and reposted this canard on Amazon.com at the instigation of another who encourages him to do it, and hides behind his shadow. Everyone will note that I only post this to defend both Rabbi Cahn and my character inasmuch as this slanderer has appeared here to defame us without cause, and without knowing who we are. Thank you.
In reply to an earlier post on Oct 15, 2013 7:27:21 PM PDT
Jose, The only reason I bring up the zohar is that it has many heretical statements & beliefs presented in it. Now what does this have to do with Cahn? In his teaching "The Zohar Speaks" Cahn quotes the zohar a lot in this teaching.
Just let me ask how biblical are these statements that Cahn made in this teaching?
Cahn ""In the Gulgalta... sit thousand of myriad of worlds. And from the Gulgalta drips dew and... the dew fills the world and the dead will awaken in the world to come as the dew comes forth. The dew is the lights of the ancient one. The light of the ancient one comes from Gulgalta and as it touches, the dead comes to life. From Gulgalta is the light of God bringing life from the dead..."
Lets look at the problems...
1. "in the gulgalta sit thousand of myriads of worlds..."
* Where in scripture is this taught? I cannot find it in the Old Testament or the New Testament or any implied passage. btw what does this have to do with Yeshua, repenting, salvation or living in accordance with Hashem's word? Scripture states His kingdom is not of this world & there is record in scripture of other worlds with people needing salvation.
2. "And from the Gulgalta drips dew... the dew fills the world and the dead will awaken in the world to come as the dew comes forth..."
* There is NO mention of any 'dew' that will fill the world or awaken the dead in scripture. This is gnostic - it gives power which is ascribed to the created, a location on creation and NOT the Creator. Again no mention in scripture at all but we do see similar themes in pagan teachings, hence the red flag when I watched & heard Cahn say this.
3. "The dew is the lights of the ancient one."
* There is only one light & that is the Mashiach, the light of the world who was in the beginning. Even in the new jerusalem we do not see dew or lights as there is only the glory/light of Hashem that lights everything. In new age teachings (which are really old age pagan ways) do we see this type of terminology. These lights are misleading, not biblical and not beneficial in any way, shape or form for the believer today. Our strength, hope & peace comes the from Him and its not in the form of dew or lights. So you can see why I question this from Cahn.
4. "The light of the ancient one comes from Gulgalta and as it touches, the dead comes to life."
* NEVER is this found in scripture - never do we see where this happening OT or NT or in the writings of the prophets. Please provide in context scriptural references for this and the prior problem areas because I cannot find any support for such wording, except in new age writings.
5. "From Gulgalta is the light of God bringing life from the dead..."
* BRINGING LIFE FROM THE DEAD?!@?!? Again no teaching from scripture supports this in the way it presented in the Zohar (mind you Cahn only quoted a small part, the rest is worse).
6. "The resurrection of the dead and redemption of the world. And they speak, they say it all will come, the power of all this miracle of all...this will come from a sacred thing, a sacred place and this place, this thing where the mercy of God is stored, all the mercy of God pours out from this place and that is where all the resurrection will come, all the blessings come from this place, this thing. What is it? Very strange. They call it the Gulgalta, this holy mystical thing."
* Scripture states that God's mercy is NOT 'stored' anywhere or that it pours out from a 'place'. Phrases similar to this are seen in druidic & early false/pagan god writings, so you can see why I am very concerned about Cahn (or anyone else using such things). When did it become ok to use pagan theology to help explain what is plainly seen in scripture? By using these things Cahn, IMHO, is only mudding the clear water of Hashem's word.
7. "The rabbis are saying `From Gulgalta is all the mercy of God you could ever need.... From Gulgalta the forgiveness of donai is poured out to the world. From Gulgalta comes the redemption of the universe.".. This is from Rabba Zohar 1, 28b."
* Scripture states VERY clearly that the universe is not in need of redemption; only people are redeemed (bought with a price which is Yeshua's death on the cross). These 'rabbis' that wrote the zohar are so far from the truth its not even funny. Yeshua is seen rebuking the religious leaders like these for adding to and taking away from Hashem's word = repent or perish was His message.
Again please support these phrases from Cahn with in context scriptures from the OT, NT & writings of the prophets. IF you cannot THEN these are dangerous statements that have elements of new age teachings, gnosticism & ways that are in conflict with Hashem and His word. I should remind you that He states we are not supposed to worship or follow the way of the pagans to worship or follow the Creator. Neither are we to use the way of teaching that the pagan's use to teach about Hashem. These rabbis who wrote the Zohar rejected the Messiah and continued in false teaching, so why would any godly man or woman want to quote from such a source, especially in light of the things I pointed out, which are in in direct conflict with the scriptures?
BTW Cahn from what I have read stated his teachings are not influenced from the zohar but here is the passage that comes from Idra Rabba, Zohar 3:128b...
"In the Gulgalta sit thirteen thousand myriads of worlds which move on feet and lean on them. And from that Gulgalta dew drips upon Him who is outside, and fills his head every day.... And from that dew which He who sits outside shakes from His head, the dead will awaken in the World to Come, as it is written, 'For a dew of light is Thy dew, and the earth shall bring forth the shades (Isa. 26:19). That dew is the light of the pale glow of the Ancient One. And from that dew exist the supernal saints, and it is the manna which they grind for the righteous in the World to Come. And that dew drips down to the field of Sacred Apples..."
So Jose you can see while I totally agree that the world and especially America needs to repent. However the scriptures state that 2/3rds will fall away & that Hashem will have a small remnant that are on the narrow road that leads to salvation & that the broad road with many leads to destruction. The statement made by Cahn that the world can be saved is lacking when we look at the truth found in scripture.
Jose you say you have known Cahn for over ten years & that he is not a kabbalist or gnostic, then why did he quote the zohar and its obvious gnostic passages? Why is it similar to esoteric pagan writings? Why are there no scriptures that support any of it in Cahn's "The Zohar Speaks" as I pointed out? If Cahn is not a kabbalist they why did he state in the teaching ""I found it in the mystical writings, Jewish writing of the Zohar.."?
I honestly want to know.
With that said I have throughly enjoyed some of Cahn's teachings, especially on bride and bridegroom & how it parallels with the feasts of the Lord = great stuff. However I feel Cahn is going down a dangerous road - one that he cannot back up with scripture. If his message is only supported by zohar and other dangerous writings then it is not a teaching I want for me or my family. I hope you understand.
Now since you know Cahn has he issued an apology for his "The Zohar Speaks" message? Did he ask forgiveness for teaching from such aberrant material? If he has then I would like to see this to put my mind at ease (as we have all done something in the past we were not proud of).
I look forward to your reply Jose.
SAR
In reply to an earlier post on Oct 15, 2013 7:34:33 PM PDT
P.S. I posted info that came from the video of Cahn's teaching "The Zohar Speaks" & the scripture which are not rantings. I have posted facts & quotes from Cahn & presented my questions so this is not slander, just seeking answers.
I'm just wondering why Cahn IF he is not a gnostic THEN why is he using such heretical sources?
BTW this is NOT an instance of brother against brother but confronting a teacher who is using very questionable material. Since no answer has been given one-on-one, the next step is bringing out in the open for a simple and easy way of settling the matter for all to see.
Your post, in reply to an earlier post on Oct 15, 2013 8:49:56 PM PDT
Dear SafeArmsReview,
Thank you for presenting your objections to the Zohar and to it use by Christians. I repeat what I have said before, Rabbi Jonathan Cahn does not believe in the writings contained within the Book of Zohar. Nor is he a Gnostic. Gnostic involved the suppression of mystery, not its discovery. Gnosticism has aberrant teachings pertaining to the Person and deity of Yeshua/Jesus the Messiah. No Jonathan Cahn does not believe or teach Gnosticism.
There are phrases in the Brit Chadashah (New Testament) which parallel those of the Community of Qumran, such as Teacher of Righteousness, and sons of light, but that does not mean that the teachings and Scriptures of the Brit Chadashah (New Testament) support or its teachings support or mirror those of the Essenes of Qumran.
The use of the Book of Zohar, which is an encyclopedic medieval work, has many passages that unwittingly bear witness that there had to be a suffering Messiah, and it cryptically illustrates many of the truths contained in the Gospel, such as Ha Shem is a Trinity, that the Angel of the Presence also known as the Angel of the Lord is G-d, that God has a Son, and many other incredible teachings that Modern Rabbinical Judaism eschews; but was once taught by Second Temple Judaism.
Now this does not mean that because it contains these things that the Brit Chadashah (New Testament) and Christianity – which in its truest form is Biblical Judaism completed because it has the Messiah – well, it does not mean that because the Book of Zohar contains all of these things that the teachings of the New Testament are heretical. It just unwittingly supports the truths of the Gospel. This is how Rabbi Cahn used this material.
He did not use it to support what the Zohar says, but to use what it says as a hostile witness (the rabbinical writings) of the Gospel of Yeshua the Messiah. This is common in Apologetics, and in Law, where one uses material from a hostile witness to support a belief or stance that other person disagrees with. This method and the material Rabbi Cahn uses in this tape you allude to has been referenced and used to support the Gospel and Yeshua’s Messiaship for centuries. It is not new with Rabbi Cahn. He is simply following in the tradition of great biblical expositors who came before him who were Jewish and had knowledge of these, such as Edersheim, Schonfield, and many others, and today Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira is one who uses these at length in his new book titled, The Return of the Kosher Pig, to show without equivocation that the writings of the rabbis of Judaism support that Yeshua IS the Promised Messiah. This is the context in which this material is used. This is not understood by people who have little or no background into Judaism, and that is where the confusion lies.
The teaching on the video dealt with the fact that this amazing passage from the Zohar bears witness that from the place of execution where the Messiah was put to death, where He surrendered His life for us all, from that very place, called Golgotha, there would come life, the resurrection from the dead, and living waters. The Gospels record that near the place of execution was a garden that had a tomb in it hewn into solid rock that had never been used, and there is where they lay the body of the Messiah. It also says that from there the Messiah rose from the dear on the third day.
The use of this material is simply for Apologetics purposes and does not in any way indicate any belief in these writings. Thank you for your candor.
In reply to an earlier post on Oct 15, 2013 10:41:03 PM PDT
Thanks for the reply but I noticed you offered no scriptures or examples from scripture whatsoever.
I have never seen this version of apologetics you speak of & more importantly I do not see it in scripture. Taking this logic further means I can quote the satanic bible to support the scriptures as long as there is some type of similarity? That is beyond lacking IMHO and dangerous to those who new to the faith. Scripture states we are to not do things that cause bretheren to stumble but I guess that does not apply here? I noticed there was no warning about the dangers of the Zohar either or was that not recorded?
As for saying basically if a parallel exists that justifies its use? I see no scriptures supporting such ways; to use pagan way/s to teach about Hashem or His ways. Can you please point me to scriptures where this is done & promoted as a viable way to teach? Please include in context scriptures from both OT & NT.
You said the "Zohar, which is an encyclopedic medieval work" is not an accurate statement as an encyclopedia is a book or collection of facts. In the case of the Zohar has many false teachings & errors. It contains heretical passages that is proved beyond a doubt (unless you discount numerous bible scholars).
If the Zohar is ok for believers then why do we see this about the Zohar... "Rabbi Shimon says in the Zohar that if you learn Kabbalah from someone who is not a true Kabbalist, someone who is not a Rabbi with all the merit, authorization, the documents and the rabbinical and kabbalistic ordination to teach, then that individual brings Darkness into the world - a darkness beyond what we can imagine."
This warning lead a reasonable person to think that using the Zohar without proper supervision is dangerous, especially for those weak or new to the faith. This is akin to using a divination board but only for 'good reasons'. You obviously don't see the present danger in doing this. Just because one can do something does not mean they should. This is not something a good shepherd would allow his flock to be exposed to IMO.
How come we don't see this same warning about Hashem's word? Scripture states over and over again that His word is life and a blessing, not something to be feared or can become darkness beyond all imagination.
While I see you put some time in your reply, I find it lacking due to the fact that none of my questions were answered nor were your answers supported with scripture. The end result is that if a person cannot support their stance, position or beliefs with in context scriptures then something is wrong.
With that said, you have proved to me that the use of the Zohar is not in best interest to believers and your using this info when it should not be used at all. The truth stands for itself and there is no need to support it with any "hostile witnesses". Again no examples in scripture for this in the OT or NT so I personally don't see the need to do it today.
Remember the Father and His word are the same yesterday, today & forever.
Please reconsider this and pass it on to Cahn; I have already seen too many ignorant believers get sucked into false teaching & worse via similar works.
Thanks for your position; there is no need to reply further.
In reply to an earlier post on Oct 16, 2013 5:21:36 AM PDT
[Deleted by the author 1 minute ago]
Oct 16, 2013 5:21:36 AM PDT
RAFAEL says:
safearmsreview: thank you for your comments and keen preception. you are truly a bible scholar!
Dear SafeArmsReview,
I misunderstood the intent behind your engaging me with your original questions. When you asked me the questions about “Cahn” as you call him, rather than by his proper title and office of Rabbi Cahn, (he is an ordained Nazarene Minister and Messianic Rabbi), which is an improper manner in which to connote an elder or minister, according to Scripture, inasmuch as the Scriptures teach us how it is we ought to comport ourselves with regard to them in various places, (Hebrews 13:7, 17) as well as they towards us. (Acts 20:28) In this respect, we would be fulfilling the commandment to treat one another with the utmost respect and dignity in love. For it says:
But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction, and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Live in peace with one another. We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone. See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people. Rejoice always; pray without ceasing; in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. Do not quench the Spirit; do not despise prophetic utterances. But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil.
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.
(1Thessalonians 5:12-24)
Elders
There are three Greek words that is translated “elders,” or “elder” and they are:
Presbuteros, (πρεσβύτερος, Greek word #4245 in Strong's) the most commonly used word in our Greek New Testaments – it is used in the twelve Apostles (Apostolos – called out ones, Hebrew plural, Talmidim, singular Talmid), the seventy Jesus sent out, and denotes those in authority in the Kehilah (Greek Ekklesia – Aramaic, Kenistah) Church, or assembly, congregation (Synagogos – Synagogue). It is used twenty-eight times in the Gospels and Acts of the members of the Jewish Sanhedrin and twelve times in Revelation of the representatives of the redeemed people of God. The remaining nineteen times the word is employed in Acts and the Epistles, it identifies the leaders in the local churches of the New Testament. While no specific age is given, the connotation of seniority and experience in this term emphasizes the nature of the position and the character of the person, implying maturity, dignity, experience and honor.[6][7] The modern English words "priest" or "presbyter" are derived etymologically from presbyteros.[8]
Episkopos, (ἐπίσκοπος, Greek word #1985 in Strong's), was a common word in the Greek culture for any official who acted as a superintendent, manager, overseer, controller, curator, guardian or ruler.[9] It occurs only five times in the New Testament, once referring to Christ[1Pet 2:25] and the other four times to church leaders. The Authorised Version translates the word as "bishop", emphasizing the function of an elder as exercising authority and supervision "by divine placement, initiative and design."[6]
Poimen, Poimen (ποιμήν, Greek word #4166 in Strong's) means shepherd,[10] also translated as pastor[Eph 4:11]. It is applied only once in the noun form and three times in the verb form in the New Testament in the context of church leaders. The term emphasizes the elder as one who tends, feeds, guides, protects and cares for his flock.[6]
Responsibilities of elders
The New Testament offers more instruction regarding elders than on many other important church subjects such as the Lord's Supper, the Lord's Day, baptism or spiritual gifts,[6] and their duties are laid out in several places. In the majority of the references, the word for elders is plural and word for church is singular,[11][12] suggesting that the pattern in the early church was for a plurality of elders in each local church.[13][14] These were to be shepherds to their flock, setting an example[1Pet 5:1-3] - just like shepherds, they were to feed their flock[Acts 20:28], to work hard among them and to reprove where necessary[1Thes 5:12-13] and to care for the spiritual and physical needs of church members.[Jas 5] Elders are considered rulers over their flocks[1Tim 5:17][1Thes 5:12] and their judgement to be submitted to,[Heb 13:17] not so that they can be "lords over God's heritage,"[1Pet 5:3] but because they are to give account to God for the spiritual character of their church.[Heb 13:17]
Elders must to be able to teach and preach sound doctrine and rebuke those who are teaching error, so that false teaching doesn't creep into the church.[1Tim 5:17][Tit 1:9-13] To this end, they are also to train and appoint others.[Acts 14:23][1Tim 4:14][Tit 1:5] Above all, the elder is to serve with humility, remembering that their position is a picture of Christ as the chief shepherd.[1Pet 5:4]
It goes without saying that in this respect, let us honor our elders according the injunction of God’s Word that teaches us to be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor (Romans 12:10), for if we are to do this with regards to one another, think how much more towards those who diligently labor among us and have charge over us in the Lord and give us instruction, for it says to esteem them highly in love because of their work (1Thessalonians 5: 12), as the Scripture admonishes above. Thus, it would be proper in the future not to refer to Jonathan Cahn just as “Cahn” but according to the office he holds by calling and election in God’s grace, according to his ordination as a minister of the Lord Jesus the Messiah. Furthermore, Paul instructed a preacher, Titus, to “appoint elders” (Titus 1:5; see also Acts 14:23). Rabbi Cahn is not just an “elder,” he is a fully ordained minister and preacher of God’s work, therefore, he should be held to a an even higher esteem according to God’s Word, because his responsibilities are that much greater. Therefore, please respect the Word of admonition when referring to Rabbi Cahn in the future. Thank you.
Now regarding your reply which you asked not to reply to, I must reply. There are certain things you wrote that need clarification, if not correction. I will try to be as considerate and understanding as possible. Please understand that I am only human and as imperfect as you, so if I say something “off color” sort to speak, it was not intentional of me. I do not seek to debate you, and when you first engaged me, I misunderstood your intent at the time, which I thought was to clarify and set the record straight about Rabbi Cahn’s own personal beliefs regarding mystic Jewish writings such as the Book of Zohar. I was mistaken, as I can see from your lengthy replies, and your vituperations and the aspersions you hurled in my and Rabbi Cahn’s direction with your statements. I was not prepared for that. I actually believed that yours was an honest inquiry about someone whom you do not know to set the record straight from someone who does not know that person personally and can bear witness for them about a matter. I realize now that this was not the case. Not the case at all, especially after I went out of my way to clarify the situation about the matter, and all you’ve done is twist my words and put my character and integrity – and Rabbi Cahn’s – into question, because my answers did not satisfy your curiosity. This is unfortunate. It is not the manner brethren ought to conduct themselves towards one another, but I’ll leave it there and go on to address what you have written.
Now let’s peel this onion, because it has many layers, and from it we will extract the facts, and correct the misunderstandings and presumptions laid upon us by people who do not know us and - I say this respectfully – and who have little knowledge about what they write about the use of hostile witnesses in the field of Apologetics.
You asked the following questions above, and since my reply to you was unsatisfactory, we will address them now. You asked: “I'm just wondering why Cahn IF he is not a gnostic THEN why is he using such heretical sources?” For the same reason that Paul the Apostle who wasn’t a Greek philosopher, quoted Greek pagan sources often and even included them in the inspired writings of his letter which made their way into the cannon of our New Testaments. It was done to promote the Gospel of Yeshua the Messiah.
You also wrote: “BTW this is NOT an instance of brother against brother but confronting a teacher who is using very questionable material. Since no answer has been given one-on-one, the next step is bringing out in the open for a simple and easy way of settling the matter for all to see.” WRONG. And wholly unbiblical. Let me explain. When Apollos preached an imperfect Gospel in Corinth, Priscilla and Aquila didn’t berate him publicly or put him to open shame and reproach as the critics of The Harbinger have done Jonathan Cahn for over a year and a half; they took him aside and explained the way of salvation to him, and then gave him letters of commendation, and sent him to the brethren, because although he had preached an incomplete Gospel having only known the baptism of John, now that he had been apprised of the full Gospel, they sent him to one brethren so that they could be encouraged by his powerful preaching. Here is the account:
Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures. This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John; and he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. And when he wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him; and when he had arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace, for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.
(Acts 18:24-28)
You wrote: Thanks for the reply but I noticed you offered no scriptures or examples from scripture whatsoever. I didn’t know from what you wrote that I had to offer any Scriptures, because I was not engaging in a polemical debate with you, or at least I was not under that impression. I believed at the time that it would suffice to explain to you that Jonathan Cahn does not believe in the mystical writings of the rabbis who wrote the Zohar and who practice Kabbalah and neither do I. You should respect that statement and accept it, because it is the truth. It doesn’t need any other explanation. It stands on its own merits in the face of God, who judges all men’s hearts, and knows mine, as well as everyone else’s. It doesn’t need a verse or passage from Scripture because it is a statement about one’s own personal faith, matter of fact, or point of view; not a biblical dissertation about a teaching. For example, I can write to you describing that I am bearded. This is a point of fact, can be an observation, but it does not require that I quote to you a Scripture to corroborate the fact that I am bearded. You ought to know the difference, and not dissemble to pretend you don’t in order to pigeonhole me into a corner. That is disingenuous of you, and below the high standards and calling you claim for yourself and Rafael claims for you in his reply to you which he deleted.
You wrote: “I have never seen this version of apologetics you speak of…”
Well what version of Apologetics are you referring to? Aren’t you aware that Josh MacDowell uses hostile witnesses in his classic work Evidence That Demands a Verdict, and More Evidence That Demands a Verdict? Daniel In the Critics Den? That Alfred Edersheim, one of the most revered and esteemed Hebrew Christian Theologians of the Nineteenth Century used all of the writings of the rabbis, including passages from the Zohar and other works, such as the Talmud, to substantiate what the Gospels teach in his classic work, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah? That currently Messianic Israeli Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira uses these in his monumental work, Return of The Kosher Pig to show how even these writings all bear witness that Biblical Judaism – not Modern Rabbinical Judaism – taught in a divine Messiah who was part of the Echad of the Godhead? Messianic Jewish leaders from every spectrum of the theological divide have used and continue to use these writings as “hostile witnesses” to corroborate what the Gospels teach about Yeshua. Pioneers of Messianic Judaism such as Moshes Rosen of Jews for Jesus used them in his day, Dr. Mitch Glazer of Chosen People Ministries has used them, Dr. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum of Ariel Ministries, esteemed theologian has used them, as has Dr. Michael Rood of A Rood Awakening, (though I personally disagree with Dr. Rood on some matters), as did the late Zola Levitt (Zola Levitt Ministries), and many others. These writings are not to be held as the Scriptures or believed in for doctrinal purposes, but are only useful in Apologetics to show Jewish unbelievers who hold them in high esteem that even they bear witness that Yeshua/Jesus is the Promised Moschiach and God in human form. This is how these great theologians and pioneers of the faith have used them, including Rabbi Cahn. It doesn’t mean that because these great theologians and pioneers of the great awakening and revival among the Jewish people in the modern era – among them, Rabbi Cahn and others – have used these writings as hostile witnesses in support of the Gospel, that they espouse the teachings contained in them – they don’t, because they’re not advocating them, but using them as they would in a court of law as evidence against those who would deny Messiah His rightful place at the head of nations.
You wrote: “& more importantly I do not see it in scripture.”
As a very young believer about thirty-seven years ago, I recall I used to say such things, and they sounded very “Scriptural” and right, but the fact is that because you can’t find something in the Bible, it doesn’t mean that it is not true. There are truths in many other places outside of the Bible, but there is only one truth – the truth that leads to eternal life, and that is in Yeshua/Jesus the Messiah. This is a very simple statement, for you and I know that Jesus has said of Himself, “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man can come to the Father except through Me.” (John 14:6) But one does not need to see something in Scripture to understand that it is true, and because it might not be in Scripture doesn’t make it a falsehood either. That is a logical fallacy. For example:
Logical Fallacy: I don’t see it in Scripture. Premise: Only Scripture contains truth. Conclusion: It is false because it is not in Scripture.
While this sound plausible and correct at first glance, it is interesting to note that when it is used, the primary premise of using this fallacy is to force the other party to claim otherwise, in order to make them appear to claim that they believe in something other than the Bible. We will see that this is nonsense, and we will see it directly from the Scriptures.
Here I must defer to a well-written article that appears on the website Credo House, titled Paul the New Socrates in Athens Paul As Philosopher (III) in which the author shows how Paul used pagan writings and philosophers to promote the truth of the Gospel when dealing with a pagan audience, just as he used the Hebrew Scriptures to reach his Jewish brethren in the synagogues of the Roman Empire.
Luke views Paul as a Socrates-like philosophical figure.
How so? Paul’s activity and teaching bear a similarity to the early Greek philosopher Socrates as portrayed by his pupil Plato in The Apology, which depicts Socrates’ trial).[2] We see three verbal similarities between Socrates and Paul:
Engaging in dialogues in the marketplace
Paul: “[E]very day with those who happened to be present,” Paul engaged in dialogues (dielegeto) in the marketplace/agora (en tē agora) (17:17).
Socrates: “I go about the world, obedient to the god, and search and make enquiry into the wisdom of any one, whether citizen or stranger” (Apology 23). The common place that Socrates engaged others was the marketplace: “If I defend myself in my accustomed manner, and you hear me using words which I have been in the habit of using in the agora… (Plato, Apology 17).
Proclaiming foreign deities:
Paul: He was accused of proclaiming “foreign gods/divinities [xenōn daimoniōn]” because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection (17:18).
Socrates: He was charged with being “a doer of evil, who corrupts the youth; and who does not believe in the gods of the city, but has other new divinities [hetera de daimonia kaina]” (Apology 24).
Presenting a new teaching:
Paul: He was asked to give an account of this “new teaching which you are proclaiming [tis hē kainē autē hē hypo sou laloumenē didachē]” (17:19).
Socrates: “Socrates is a doer of evil, who corrupts the youth; and who does not believe in the gods of the city, but has other new divinities” (hetera de daimonia kaina]” (Apology 24).
Luke is trying to strengthen Paul’s message by connecting him to Socrates. As biblical scholar Walter Hansen observes, “Luke indicates the favourable reception which the [Areopagus] address should receive from his hearers in the Greek world by this association of Paul with Socrates.”[3]
Not only does Acts 17 show Paul’s philosophical prowess by connecting him with Socrates; Paul actually quotes pagan philosophers/thinkers to build bridges with his audience.
v. 23: “I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’” Various writers like Pausanias and Diogenes Laertius [Laertes] mentioned altars to unknown gods. Epimenides of Crete (6th cent. BC) was associated with the altars to the unknown God in Athens.
v. 28: “for in Him we live and move and exist.” This is also attributed to Epimenides the Cretan thinker.
v. 29: “as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’” (This was from the Stoic poet of Soli, near Tarsus, c. 315-246 BC.)
As an aside, Paul quotes Epimenides again in Titus 1:12 (“Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons”) and Menander in 1 Corinthians 15:33 (“Bad company corrupts good morals”).
Some have compared Paul’s method of presentation to that of the Stoics—in approach rather than in exact theological content. The Roman writer and rhetorician Cicero gave the standard outline of Stoic arguments in his work De natura deorum: “first they prove that the gods exist; next they explain their nature; they show that the world is governed by them; and lastly, [that] they care for the fortunes of mankind.”[4]
Being a good Jew, Paul was angered by the idols he saw in Athens. However, he approached the Athenians graciously and calmly in an attempt to build bridges. He took as his opening, the Altar to the Unknown God. In the sixth century BC, Athens had been plagued by pestilence. The despairing city leaders called to the “prophet” Epimenides of Crete (whom Paul cites in Titus 1:12) to come and help. His solution was to drive a herd of black and white sheep away from the Areopagus and wherever they would lie down, they would be sacrificed to the god of that place. As it turns out, the plague ceased, and, as Diogenes Laertes described it, memorial altars with no god’s name inscribed on them could be found as a result.[5]
Paul was the consummate bridge-builder, who became all things to all people—to Jew and Gentile alike—so that he might win some. Being the cosmopolitan man he was, he could build rapport with his hearers on many levels. And despite their misguided worship and allegiances, he sought to connect the Athenians to their Maker, their Savior, and the Judge of all humanity.
The Socrates-like Paul also used his intellectual brilliance—both his philosophical and theological-mindedness—for God’s glory. He was prepared to present the risen Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. In his ministry, he wisely recognized that evangelism is a process, not necessarily an event. Jesus affirmed that people often need to not only sit down and count the cost of discipleship; Paul likewise reasoned not only with Jews in the synagogues, but with Gentiles in the agora; he challenged his hearers to think through the logical conclusions of their own beliefs as well as the philosophical implications of the Christian faith. Unlike many well-intentioned evangelists who “rest their case” by saying, “The Bible says…,” Paul wrapped key biblical themes into a language and context that his pagan audience could understand; Paul even quotes other “authorities” when they reflect biblical themes.
This type of pre-evangelism illustrates the importance of establishing common ground with our hearers. As thoughtful believers, we can appeal to common philosophical intuitions and ideals (e.g., human dignity and rights or moral ideals) as well as to empirical evidences such as the universe’s beginning in the Big Bang or the universe’s remarkable fine-tuning; we can point to the existence of beauty, objective moral values, reason, and consciousness—all of which are readily explained in a theistic context, not a non-theistic one. In doing so, we can, by the Spirit, point people to the God “in whom we live and move and have our being”—the God “who is not far from each one of us.”
[1] Marilyn McCord Adams, “Philosophy and the Bible: The Areopagus Speech,” Faith and Philosophy 9 (1992): 146.
[2] G. Walter Hansen, “The Preaching and Defence of Paul,” in Witness to the Gospel: The Theology of Acts, eds. I.H. Marshall and David Peterson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1998), 310.
[3] Ibid. This is contrary to what Marilyn McCord Adams asserts: “the Paul of Acts does not pursue his mission to the Athenians, for the simple reason that he was not a philosopher.” Marilyn McCord Adams, “Philosophy and the Bible: The Areopagus Speech,” Faith and Philosophy 9 (1992): 146.
[4] Hansen, “Preaching and Defence,” 312; Bruce Winter writes: “It must be concluded in seeking to understand Paul’s approach to Stoic views held by his audience, that he may well have consciously used the traditional outline of the Stoics on De natura deorum.” Bruce W. Winter, “In Public and in Private: Early Christians and Religious Pluralism,” in One God, One Lord: Christianity in a World of Religious Pluralism (2nd ed.), eds. A.D. Clarke and B.W. Winter (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1992), 136.
[5] William Larkin, Acts (Downers Grove, IL: 1995), 255. The story behind the Altar to an Unknown God is described by Diogenes Laertes’ Lives of the Philosophers 1.110.
It is precisely as Paul had done at Athens, and as he does throughout his letters, where he teaches and quotes directly from pagan sources to support the point he wants to make in promoting the Gospel that these teachers of God’s Word have used, continue to use, and will continue to use all of the relevant extra-biblical sources as hostile witnesses – not false witnesses, as is implied in SafeArmsReview’s comments in the last two entries to this discussion. This does not any way indicate that any of these born again expositors, theologians, and Messianic Rabbis agree or believe the writings of the Zohar; they are using parts of them, NOT ALL PARTS, but just the parts that relate in support of the Gospel and what the Gospel narratives teach about the life of Yeshua the Messiah.
You wrote: Taking this logic further means I can quote the satanic bible to support the scriptures as long as there is some type of similarity? This statement is another fallacy because it compares two distinct pieces of literature as though they were one and the same. It is comparing the proverbial apple with the orange. Although they are both fruits – no will dispute that – they are not the same, they don’t look the same, and they don’t taste the same. One book – The Book of Zohar – as flawed as it may be – extols the God of Israel. The other book – The Satanic Bible blasphemes and renounces Him. There is no disputing that The Book of Zohar contains many what would be deemed heretical teachings that none of the above brethren, including Rabbi Cahn believe or hold as sacred as they do the Scriptures. But to use the fallacy that its use by these men or any others is equivalent to advocating its entire contents, is patently false and not true. And when the same individuals continue to claim that its use is synanomous with advocating all of its contents even after being informed as they have here that Jonathan Cahn DOES NOT advocate, teach, or believe in The Zohar – then we are dealing with people who are either not listening, or simply wish to continue to promote the false witness that Jonathan Cahn is an Occult Kabbalist, when in fact he is not.
You wrote: That is beyond lacking IMHO and dangerous to those who new to the faith. In My Humble Honest Opinion? Is that right? It is lacking if one is teaching it as dogma and essential doctrine, but if portions of it is used as Paul does the pagan writers and Greek philosophers he quotes, it is allowed, as we can see Scripturally, because it is being used to further and advance the cause of the Gospel in addressing an alien audience, in Paul’s case, Greek pagans.
You wrote: Scripture states we are to not do things that cause bretheren to stumble but I guess that does not apply here? This is correct, I do not dispute this truth, for the Messiah has warned us, “The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom [w]all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, [x]let him hear.” (Matthew 13:41-43) And, “Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!” (Matthew 18:7)
But, if you are implying that using a hostile witness to teach that the rabbis unwittingly support what the Gospels teach about the life of the Messiah whom they do not recognize, and that piece of literature, at that location can be used to bring them to faith in the Messiah, to recognize that He would die at a place called Golgotha; that from there – from His death, there would come new life, resurrected life in Him, through the infilling of the Holy Spirit – the Ruach Ha Kodesh, that from this death would come streams of living waters – and these Jewish listeners would recognize this from their own writings which they read and study daily; if these can be won to Christ, then I would say it was not in vain.
You wrote: I noticed there was no warning about the dangers of the Zohar either or was that not recorded? Why should there be? It is being used as a hostile witness to corroborate what is written in the Scripture – in the Gospel narrative – which the Jewish people who study the Zohar do not know about.
And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter. (Zechariah 14:8)
You wrote: As for saying basically if a parallel exists that justifies its use? I see no scriptures supporting such ways; to use pagan way/s to teach about Hashem or His ways. Can you please point me to scriptures where this is done & promoted as a viable way to teach? Please include in context scriptures from both OT & NT. We have just seen above how Paul used the pagan Greek philosophers to promote the Gospel. You may not understand this yet, and my not see it, but it is in Scripture. And as you requested, the relevant Scripture has been cited and quoted above. If you understand the context of its use and how Paul used these pagan writings, some of which made it into the cannon of Scripture itself in the Brit Chadashah as illustrations to teach universal truths, then you will have grown in your understanding why such material is relevant only for the purposes of Apologetics in advancing the truth of the Gospel to people who would not normally read them New Testament, such as Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox Chassidic Jews.
You wrote: You said the "Zohar, which is an encyclopedic medieval work" is not an accurate statement as an encyclopedia is a book or collection of facts. You misunderstood what I meant. My apologies. When I used the word “encyclopedic,” I used it as an adjective, describing the volume and not the content of The Book of Zohar. I should have prefaced it with the description that The Book of Zohar is not a single book, or rather a single volume, but comprised of many books. I didn’t mean that everything contained inside its covers is an accurate statement as an encyclopedia is a collection of facts, as you posit above; but that it is a mammoth work. For you and our readers benefit, this is what the Jewish Virtual Library says about The Zohar:
The Zohar (Hebrew Zohar "Splendor, radiance") is widely considered the most important work of Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism. It is a mystical commentary on the Torah (five books of Moses), written in medieval Aramaic and medieval Hebrew. It contains a mystical discussion of the nature of God, the origin and structure of the universe, the nature of souls, sin, redemption, good and evil, and related topics.
The Zohar is not one book, but a group of books. These books include scriptural interpretations as well as material on theosophic theology, mythical cosmogony, mystical psychology, and what some would call anthropology.
Origin
According to Gershom Scholem, most of the Zohar was written in an exalted style of Aramaic that was spoken in Palestine during the second century of the modern era. The Zohar first appeared in Spain in the thirteenth century, and was published by a Jewish writer named Moses ben Shem-Tov de Leon. He ascribed this work to a rabbi of the second century, Simeon ben Yohai. Jewish historiography holds that during a time of Roman persecution, Rabbi Simeon hid in a cave for 13 years, studying the Torah (five books of Moses) with his son Eliezar. During this time he is said to have been inspired by God to write the Zohar.
The fact that the Zohar was found by one lone individual, Moses de Leon, taken together with the circumstance that it refers to historical events of the post-Talmudical period, caused the authenticity of the work to be questioned from the outset. There is a story told about how after the death of Moses de Leon, a rich man of Avila, named Joseph, offered the widow, who had been left without means, a large sum of money for the original from which her husband had made the copy; and she then confessed that her husband himself was the author of the work. She had asked him several times, she said, why he had chosen to credit his own teachings to another, and he had always answered that doctrines put into the mouth of the miracle-working Simeon ben Yohai would be a rich source of profit. Incredible as this story seems, it at least proves that shortly after its appearance the work was believed by some to have been written entirely by Moses de Leon.
Acceptance of Authenticity
Over time, however, the general view in the Jewish community came to be one of acceptance of Moses ben Shem-Tov's claims; the Zohar was held to be an authentic book of mysticism passed down from the second century.
The Zohar spread among the Jews with remarkable celerity. Scarcely fifty years had passed since its appearance in Spain before it was quoted by many cabalists, among whom was the Italian mystical writer Menahem Recanati. Its authority was so well established in Spain in the fifteenth century that Joseph ibn Shem-Tov drew from it arguments in his attacks against Maimonides. It exercised so great a charm upon the cabalists that they could not believe for an instant that such a book could have been written by any mortal unless he had been inspired from above; and this being the case, it was to be placed on the same level with the Bible.
Even representatives of non-mysticism oriented Judaism began to regard it as a sacred book and to invoke its authority in the decision of some ritual questions. They were attracted by its glorification of man, its doctrine of immortality, and its ethical principles, which are more in keeping with the spirit of Talmudical Judaism than are those taught by the philosophers. While Maimonides and his followers regarded man as a fragment of the universe whose immortality is dependent upon the degree of development of his active intellect, the Zohar declared him to be the lord of the Creation, whose immortality is solely dependent upon his morality. According to the Zohar, the moral perfection of man influences the ideal world of the Sefirot; for although the Sefirot expect everything from the Ein Sof (Heb.infinity), the Ein Sof itself is dependent upon man: he alone can bring about the divine effusion. The dew that vivifies the universe flows from the just. By the practice of virtue and by moral perfection man may increase the outpouring of heavenly grace. Even physical life is subservient to virtue. This, says the Zohar, is indicated in the words "for the Lord God had not caused it to rain" (Gen. ii. 5), which mean that there had not yet been beneficent action in heaven because man had not yet given the impulsion.
The Zohar was quoted by Todros Abulafia, by Menahem Recanati, and even by Isaac of Acco, in whose name the story of the confession of Moses de Leon's widow is related. Isaac evidently ignored the woman's alleged confession in favor of the testimony of Joseph ben Todros and of Jacob, a pupil of Moses de Leon, both of whom assured him on oath that the work was not written by Moses. The only objection worthy of consideration by the believers in the authenticity of the Zohar was the lack of references to the work in Jewish literature; and to this they answered that Simeon ben Yohai did not commit his teachings to writing, but transmitted them orally to his disciples, who in turn confided them to their disciples, and these to their successors, until finally the doctrines were embodied in the Zohar. As to the references in the book to historical events of the post-Talmudic period, it was not deemed surprising that Simeon ben Yohai should have foretold future happenings.
Rejection of Authenticity
The first attack upon the accepted authorship of the Zohar was made by Elijah Delmedigo. Without expressing any opinion as to the real author of the work, he endeavored to show, in his "Bechinat ha-Dat" that it could not be attributed to Simeon ben Yohai. The objections were that:
if the Zohar was the work of Simeon ben Yohai, it would have been mentioned by the Talmud, as has been the case with other works of the Talmudic period; the Zohar contains names of rabbis who lived at a later period than that of Simeon;
were Simeon ben Yohai the father of the Kabbalah, knowing by divine revelation the hidden meaning of the precepts, his decisions on Jewish law would have been adopted by the Talmud; but this has not been done;
were the Kabbalah a revealed doctrine, there would have been no divergence of opinion among the Kabbalists concerning the mystic interpretation of the precepts ("Bechinat ha-Dat" ed. Vienna, 1833, p. 43).
These arguments and others of the same kind were used by Leon of Modena in his “Ari Nohem.” A work devoted to the criticism of the Zohar was written, "Mishpat Sefarim," by Jacob Emden, who, waging war against the remaining adherents of the Sabbatai Zevi movement, endeavored to show that the book on which Zevi based his doctrines was a forgery. Emden demonstrates that the Zohar misquotes passages of Scripture; misunderstands the Talmud; contains some ritual observances which were ordained by later rabbinical authorities; mentions the crusades against the Muslims (who did not exist in the second century); uses the expression "esnoga", which is a Portuguese corruption of "synagogue," and gives a mystical explanation of the Hebrew vowel-points, which were not introduced until long after the Talmudic period.
In the mid 20th century, the Jewish historian Gershom Scholem contended that de Leon himself was the most likely author of the Zohar. Among other things, Scholem noticed the Zohar's frequent errors in Aramaic grammar, its suspicious traces of Spanish words and sentence patterns, and its lack of knowledge of the land of Israel. This finding is still disputed by many Orthodox Jews. Other Jewish scholars have also suggested the possibility that the Zohar was written by a group of people, including de Leon. This theory generally presents de Leon as having been the leader of a mystical school, whose collective effort resulted in the Zohar.
Even if de Leon wrote the text, the entire contents of the book may not be fraudulent. Parts of it may be based on older works, and it was a common practice to ascribe the authorship of a document to an ancient rabbi in order to give the document more weight. It is possible that Moshe de Leon considered himself inspired to write this text.
Mysticism
"Woe unto the man," says Simeon ben Yohai, "who asserts that this Torah intends to relate only commonplace things and secular narratives; for if this were so, then in the present times likewise a Torah might be written with more attractive narratives. In truth, however, the matter is thus: The upper world and the lower are established upon one and the same principle; in the lower world is Israel, in the upper world are the angels. When the angels wish to descend to the lower world, they have to don earthly garments. If this be true of the angels, how much more so of the Torah, for whose sake, indeed, the world and the angels were alike created and exist. The world could simply not have endured to look upon it. Now the narratives of the Torah are its garments. He who thinks that these garments are the Torah itself deserves to perish and have no share in the world to come. Woe unto the fools who look no further when they see an elegant robe! More valuable than the garment is the body which carries it, and more valuable even than that is the soul which animates the body. Fools see only the garment of the Torah, the more intelligent see the body, the wise see the soul, its proper being; and in the Messianic time the 'upper soul' of the Torah will stand revealed."
Pardes and Biblical Exegesis
The Zohar assumes four kinds of Biblical exegesis: "Peshat" (literal meaning), "Remez" (allusion), "Derash" (anagogical), and "Sod" (mystic). The initial letters of the words "Peshat", "Remez", "Derash", and "Sod" form together the word "PaRDeS" (Paradise), which became the designation for the fourfold meaning of which the mystical sense is the highest part.
The mystic allegorism is based by the Zohar on the principle that all visible things, the phenomena of nature included, have besides their exoteric reality an esoteric reality also, destined to instruct man in that which is invisible. This principle is the necessary corollary of the fundamental doctrine of the Zohar. The universe being, according to that doctrine, a gradation of emanations, it follows that the human mind may recognize in each effect the supreme mark, and thus ascend to the cause of all causes.
This ascension, however, can only be made gradually, after the mind has attained four various stages of knowledge; namely: (1) the knowledge of the exterior aspect of things, or, as the Zohar calls it (ii. 36b), "the vision through the mirror that projects an indirect light"; (2) the knowledge of the essence of things, or "the vision through the mirror that projects a direct light"; (3) the knowledge through intuitive representation; and (4) the knowledge through love, since the Law reveals its secrets to those only who love it (ii. 99b).
After the knowledge through love comes the ecstatic state which is applied to the most holy visions. To enter the state of ecstasy one had to remain motionless, with the hand between the knees, absorbed in contemplation and murmuring prayers and hymns. There were seven ecstatic stages, each of which was marked by a vision of a different color. At each new stage the contemplative entered a heavenly hall ("hekal") of a different hue, until he reached the seventh, which was colorless, and the appearance of which marked both the end of his contemplation and his lapse into unconsciousness. The Zohar gives the following illustration of an ecstatic state:
"Once," says R. Simeon ben Yohai, "I was plunged in a contemplative ecstasy, and I beheld a sublime ray of a brilliant light which illumined 325 circles, and amid which something dark was bathing. Then the dark point, becoming bright, began to float toward the deep and sublime sea, where all the splendors were gathering. I then asked the meaning of this vision, and I was answered that it represented the forgiveness of sins."
Effects on Judaism
The Zohar was lauded by many rabbis because it opposed religious formalism, stimulated one's imagination and emotions, and for many people helped reinvigorate the experience of prayer. In many places prayer had become a mere external religious exercise, while prayer was supposed to be a means of transcending earthly affairs and placing oneself in union with God.
The Zohar was censured by many rabbis because it propagated many superstitious beliefs, and produced a host of mystical dreamers, whose over-heated imaginations peopled the world with spirits, demons, and all kinds of good and bad influences. Many classical rabbis, especially Maimonides, viewed all such beliefs as a violation of Judaism's principles of faith.
Its mystic mode of explaining some commandments was applied by its commentators to all religious observances, and produced a strong tendency to substitute a mystic Judaism in the place of traditional rabbinic Judaism.
Shabbat, the Jewish Sabbath, began to be looked upon as the embodiment of God in temporal life, and every ceremony performed on that day was considered to have an influence upon the superior world.
Elements of the Zohar crept into the liturgy of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, and the religious poets not only used in their compositions the allegorism and symbolism of the Zohar, but even adopted its style, e.g. the use of erotic terminology to illustrate the relations between man and God. Thus, in the language of some Jewish poets the beloved one's curls indicate the mysteries of the Deity; sensuous pleasures, and especially intoxication, typify the highest degree of divine love as ecstatic contemplation; while the wine-room represents merely the state through which the human qualities merge or are exalted into those of God.
Influence on Christian Mysticism
The enthusiasm felt for the Zohar was shared by many Christian scholars, such as Pico de Mirandola, Reuchlin, Ægidius of Viterbo, etc., all of whom believed that the book contained proofs of the truth of Christianity. They were led to this belief by the analogies existing between some of the teachings of the Zohar and certain Christian dogmas, such as the fall and redemption of man, and the dogma of the Trinity, which seems to be expressed in the Zohar in the following terms: "The Ancient of Days has three heads. He reveals himself in three archetypes, all three forming but one. He is thus symbolized by the number Three. They are revealed in one another. [These are:] first, secret, hidden 'Wisdom'; above that the Holy Ancient One; and above Him the Unknowable One. None knows what He contains; He is above all conception. He is therefore called for man 'Non-Existing' ["'Ayin"]" (Zohar, iii. 288b).
This and other similar doctrines found in the Zohar are now known to be much older than Christianity; but the Christian scholars who were led by the similarity of these teachings to certain Christian dogmas deemed it their duty to propagate the Zohar. Shortly after the publication of the work (Mantua and Cremona, 1558) Joseph de Voisin translated extracts from it which deal with the soul. He was followed by many others.
The disastrous effects of the Sabbatai Zevi messianic movement on the Jewish community damped the enthusiasm that had been felt for the book in the Jewish community. However, the Zohar is still held in great reverence by many Orthodox Jews, especially the Hasidim (Hasidic Jews).
Appendices and Additions
The Zohar is not considered complete without the addition of certain appendixes, which are often attributed either to the same author, or to some of his immediate disciples. These supplementary portions are almost always printed as part of the text with separate titles, or in separate columns. They are as follows:
"Sifra di-?eni'uta", consisting of five chapters, in which are chiefly discussed the questions involved in the Creation, such as the transition from the infinite to the finite, that from absolute unity to multifariousness, that from pure intelligence to matter, etc.
"Idra Rabbah", in which the teachings of the preceding portion are enlarged upon and developed; and "Idra Zuta", giving a résumé of the two preceding sections.
To the larger appendixes are added the following fragments:
"Raze de Razin", dealing with the connection of the soul with the body.
"Sefer Hekalot", describing the seven heavenly halls, paradise, and hell.
"Raya Mehemna", giving a conversation between Moses, the prophet Elijah, and Simeon ben Yohai on the allegorical import of the Mosaic commandments and prohibitions, as well as of the rabbinical injunctions.
"Sitre Torah", on various topics.
"Midrash ha-Ne'elam", explaining passages of Scripture mystically by way of hints and gematria (mystical numerology).
"Saba", containing a conversation between the prophet Elijah and Simeon ben Yohai about the doctrine of metempsychosis.
"Yanu?a", on the importance of washing the hands before meals and on similar subjects, written in the name of a child of Hamnuna Saba, whence the title "Yanu?a" (child).
"Tosefta" and "Matnitin," in which are sketched the doctrines of the Sefirot, the emanation of the primordial light, etc.
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Source: Wikipedia: Zohar, This article is available under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License
You wrote: In the case of the Zohar has many false teachings & errors. It contains heretical passages that is proved beyond a doubt (unless you discount numerous bible scholars). It does contain many false teachings and errors. But these are not the ones that Rabbi Cahn and other Jewish believers have used in Apologetics against anti-missionary groups and organizations such as Jews for Judaism. Which Bible scholars are you citing? Not Ted Pike, he’s a rabid Anti-Semite, and has no credibility within Christian Evangelical circles.
You wrote: If the Zohar is ok for believers then why do we see this about the Zohar... "Rabbi Shimon says in the Zohar that if you learn Kabbalah from someone who is not a true Kabbalist, someone who is not a Rabbi with all the merit, authorization, the documents and the rabbinical and kabbalistic ordination to teach, then that individual brings Darkness into the world - a darkness beyond what we can imagine." He is referring to someone who has simcha. Do you know what that is or means? Paul the Apostle, who was an ordained Pharisee, was himself authorized to teach Torah because he possessed simcha; and he was able to pass this simcha, as rabbis have done, on to elders and leaders who would shepherd their flock in the Kehilah – the church.
You wrote: This warning lead a reasonable person to think that using the Zohar without proper supervision is dangerous, especially for those weak or new to the faith. Rabbi Cahn and the Jewish believers named above are not new to the faith, and know how to properly use The Zohar to promote Yeshua as Messiah and the Gospel to the Jewish people, as Paul used the Greek pagan philosophers to promote the Gospel to a pagan Gentile audience. Like Paul, they did not advocate the teachings, but used excerpts from these works to bring the respective audience to the Messiah. This is biblical, because it was used by Paul.
You wrote: This is akin to using a divination board but only for 'good reasons'. This is how you see it, but when some of its contents is used to further the Gospel and get people saved, it has been used for a worthy cause. There is no evil in that, and Yeshua/Jesus is affirmed as Lord and Messiah.
You wrote: You obviously don't see the present danger in doing this. Not if it is being used as Rabbi Cahn and these other great theologians have used it. No.
You wrote: Just because one can do something does not mean they should. This is not something a good shepherd would allow his flock to be exposed to IMO. As you have written, In Your Opinion, which I respectfully disagree with, because it infers that the use of portions of the Zohar for Apologetics purposes is tantamount to believing in it, and teaching it. It is not. I can cite the Communist Manifesto, to show how ten planks from this piece of literature has already been introduced into the American economy and is now at work, but this does not mean that I believe the teachings of the Communist Manifesto or support them. The person who originally wrote about this has never been involved in Jewish Evangelism, and has little or no knowledge of Judaism or Jewish Culture. This is why he includes portions of what you cite above as his evidence that Rabbi Cahn teaches Jewish Mysticism. His original writing on this in his book is what started this urban legend about Rabbi Cahn.
You wrote: How come we don't see this same warning about Hashem's word? It’s Ha Shem, meaning Ha=the and Shem=Name; not Hashem. This proper noun is used by observant Jews to denote the Lord YHWH, because they consider God’s name too holy to be pronounced. It is a rabbinical injunction; a Halacha. You’re comparing apples and oranges again. Both extol God, but one is man-made, the other, though written by imperfect men, is inspired and breathed into faithful men who wrote as the Holy Spirit directed them. The Hebrew Bible and Brit Chadashah (New Testament) is God’s inerrant Word. Not the Zohar. Respectfully, how can you ask this question?
You wrote: Scripture states over and over again that His word is life and a blessing, not something to be feared or can become darkness beyond all imagination. I agree 100% with this statement. Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path. (Psalm 119:105) The grass withers, the flower fades,
But the word of our God stands forever. (Isaiah 40:8)
You wrote: While I see you put some time in your reply, I find it lacking due to the fact that none of my questions were answered nor were your answers supported with scripture. This is why I have taken the time and effort to make it very clear to you what I tried to say in the simplest terms to you originally. This time, I want to make myself perfectly clear to you that neither I, nor Rabbi Cahn, nor any of these great Messianic Jewish theologians believe in either the Kabbalah or its literature; the Book of Zohar. Neither do we advocate its use by Christians except for Apologetics purposes to win Jewish audiences to the Messiah.
You wrote: The end result is that if a person cannot support their stance, position or beliefs with in context scriptures then something is wrong. Initially, I did not believe that you questions to me was in the form of a polemical exercise at debating the merits/demerits of the Zohar’s use. I believed that you honestly wanted to know whether there was any truth to these urban legends about Rabbi Cahn and about his book, The Harbinger, as you were told. This is why I didn’t feel the need at that time to present the Scriptures in this regard, because I was answering your question about whether Rabbi Cahn believed in the Zohar and why he quoted from it in a sermon he gave. It was not a Scriptural dissertation that I expected to write to you, as I have here, but just a simple explanation, and I thought that would have sufficed to satiate your curiosity. Since I see that was not the case, I have since remediated this situation by supplying to you what you and our readers read here.
You wrote: With that said, you have proved to me that the use of the Zohar is not in best interest to believers and your using this info when it should not be used at all. I wasn’t out to prove that it was. I was only explaining to you and to those who read this how can and is used apologetically to advance the Gospel. This is your prerogative, but I would not presume to force it on anyone else. As I wrote above, it can be used apologetically as Paul did with the pagan philosophers when preaching to pagans. You can understand that, can you? You don’t have to agree with it, but you can understand it, just like I respectfully disagree with you, but understand where it is you are coming from. I’m not out to convince you or anybody else to use the Zohar, but to explain how it was used by Rabbi Cahn apologetically in his sermon, The Zohar Speaks.
You wrote: The truth stands for itself and there is no need to support it with any "hostile witnesses". You’re right there isn’t. And I do not claim to say that it should here. But I do posit the following for you to consider, and I do hope that you can understand it, though you may not relate to it if you’re not Jewish, or were not brought up in an Orthodox Jewish home. There is when your target audience has been so conditioned by their religious upbringing that they will not accept your claims unless they are presented in a manner and in ways that they can culturally and intellectually understand and accept as valid. Two thousand years of persecution and the eradication of every biblical Jewish concept and context of what the New Testament teaches by the Roman Catholic and Protestant church has rendered Christianity both unacceptable and unrecognizable to God’ s people.
You wrote: Again no examples in scripture for this in the OT or NT so I personally don't see the need to do it today. The Scriptural examples have been cited above.
You wrote: Remember the Father and His word are the same yesterday, today & forever. Amen and amen. Something we can agree upon. Praise the Lord!
You wrote: Please reconsider this and pass it on to Cahn; I have already seen too many ignorant believers get sucked into false teaching & worse via similar works. Your implications here are insulting. Rabbi Cahn’s apologetic use of this material to further the cause of the Gospel among the Jewish people is not false teaching.
Thanks for your position; there is no need to reply further. You understand, I had to reply. I could not leave what you wrote unanswered.
In reply to an earlier post on Oct 16, 2013 10:16:05 PM PDT
Well I asked simple questions with many requests for scriptures and you have not provided them.
I was sincerely hoping for some answers but all I got was pages of replies with no straight forward answers.
Thanks for the replies & insight.
Bye
Your post, in reply to an earlier post on Oct 17, 2013 1:36:56 AM PDT
Jose J. Bernal says:
I have been as forthright and as honest before God towards you as any person can be. I have provided biblical evidence to support the use of extra biblical material in Apologetics. I have not lied before God in providing all of this information to you and to our readers here; and you reply with your snide remark that you asked simple questions with many requests for Scriptures and I have not provided it!!!???? And then you have the audacity to claim that you were sincere and hoping for some answers but all you got was pages of replies with no straight answers!!!???? When in fact, I provided all of the relevant information that was needed and any sane person would have accepted it and apologized and not be heard from again. I took the time because even though I was beginning to suspect that you were another Rafael/Legma/Gabriel/DavidJ/, I still wanted to allow you the benefit of the doubt, and provide not for your sake, but for Jonathan Cahn’s sake, and all of the readers’ here sake, especially for the Lord’s sake; the facts and nothing but the facts without embellishment. And now you have provided me with answer to my suspicions about you, and have tipped your hand to those who read here, because true to character and form; you have revealed yourself by your reply. You could’ve thanked me and said you still respectfully disagree, but you didn’t. No. You instead revealed yourself by still charging that the extended biblical explanation I provided and took the time to write to clear the air once and for all about this, that I did not provide straight forward answers or biblical proof of what I had said.
You are disingenuous. First you asked whether or not a servant of the Lord whom I have known for over ten years believes a certain way as is mischaracterized by you and Rafael and originally as written in a certain man’s polemical book, and I have replied more than once here and elsewhere that what you infer and accuse this man of being directly – you, Rafael/Legma/Gabriel and other aliases you use – that this man is NOT what the lot of you say he is. That what you, Rafael, and David J, claim he is has been a fabrication, and urban legend. Then you take a burp – a small fraction from one of his sermons to misquote and mislead and perpetuate an urban legend that he is an Occultic, a Kabbalist, a Jewish Mystic, and who knows what other lies and falsehoods you and your aliases have concocted to bear false witness against a brother in Christ, breaking the commandment, to put him to open reproach and destroy his ministry and life’s work in the Lord. That is contemptible. Let this be incontrovertible evidence for everyone who comes here that the lies that Rafael has posted here to slander a man of God and your own efforts at the same, are nothing but urban legends. And should they wish to take the time, and read what I have written in regard to that urban legend created originally by DavidJ and spread by Rafael, and promoted by you; let them see for themselves the facts from the fiction you and your aliases and allies have created. Let the Lord God judge between us, and let the Lord God bring the people to account for what they have done against another brother whose sole crime was defend the Christian faith by using a small caption of the Zohar to support and defend the truth of the Gospel narrative about the Messiah as a hostile witness; a common practice in Apologetics.
And let them see and bear witness that it is you and your colleagues who have not been honest and forthright in your dealings, and even in the face of information – testimony from one who is in position to know Rabbi Cahn personally and speak authoritatively about him and what he does teach or doesn’t teach – even in the face of my own personal testimony and the time and work that it took for me to provide this information, as I have done here, only to be rebuffed in this manner, let them discern and see for themselves the true nature and character of those who would besmirch another because they disagree and disapprove of them in some way. Let God judge between us, and let him hold everyone here accountable. I done with you and with Rafael/Gabriel/Legma and all of the other aliases you people use in your ruse to further the deceptions of David J on this discussion board and others on Amazon.com.
Is it possible... That there exists an ancient mystery that holds the secret of America's future? That this mystery lies behind everything from 9/11 to the collapse of the global economy? That ancient harbingers of judgment are now manifesting in America? That God is sending America a prophetic message of what is yet to come? Before its end as a nation, there appeared in ancient Israel nine specific warnings and omens of national destruction - These same nine Harbingers are now manifesting in America with profound ramifications for America's future and end-time prophecy. Hidden in an ancient biblical prophecy from Isaiah, the mysteries revealed in "The Harbinger" are so precise that they foretell recent American events down to the exact days... the 3,000-year-old mystery that revealed the exact date of the stock market collapse of 2008... the ancient prophecy that was proclaimed from the floor of the US Senate and then came true... and more. The revelations are so specific that even the most hardened skeptic will find it hard to put down. Though it sounds like the plot of a Hollywood thriller - IT'S REAL. The prophetic mysteries are factual but revealed through a riveting narrative the reader will find hard to put down. "The Harbinger "opens with the appearance of a man burdened with a message he has received from a mysterious figure called The Prophet. The Prophet has given him nine seals, each containing a message about America s future. As he tells of his encounters with the Prophet, from a skyscraper in New York City, to a rural mountaintop, to Capitol Hill, to Ground Zero, the mystery behind each seal is revealed. As the story unfolds, each revelation becomes another piece in a larger and larger puzzle, the ramifications of which are, even now, altering the course of America and the world.
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6:50 p.m. EDT, July 8, 2013
The mystery of The Harbinger, a forewarning of a judgment to come, began over 2,700 years ago in ancient Israel. In the last days before Israel's judgment, nine harbingers, or signs of a nation on the path to judgment were manifested.
The people of Israel disregarded the signs and continued in acts of defiance against God. A number of years were given to them to turn back to God or enter into judgment. Israel refused, and in 722 B.C. they were destroyed. Shockingly, eerie and downright scary, those same nine harbingers of judgment that appeared in the last days of Israel are now appearing on American soil.
On April 30, 1789, newly elected president George Washington spoke a prophetic warning during his inaugural speech at the nation's capital. Basically Washington stated if America upholds God's standards of righteousness it will be blessed with protection and prosperity. But if America should disregard or depart from God's standards his blessings will be withdrawn from the land. After the speech was completed the entire government, including the House of Representatives and the Senate walked to a small church,( St. Paul's chapel) to pray and commit Americas future to God.
The kindergarten version of ancient Israel's destruction is summarized like this: Israel was living in peace and prosperity in the Promised Land. Israel turned their back on God and decided to venture down the path of apostasy. They choose sexual perversion, homosexually, worshipping other gods such as Canaanite worship which was pornographic that deemed material prosperity, physical satisfaction, and human pleasure over all else. Killing and sacrificing their children to Baal, Molech, and Anat, a goddess of sexuality and violence, became a standard in Israel.
Like ancient Israel, America was founded on Biblical principles, virtues and moral values. The America we view today lost its holy virginity in 1963 when anti-God political leaders and judges screamed foul and tossed God from our school systems. Today American universities and some public school systems have honored Islam (pagan god worship) by providing prayer rooms for worship.
In 1973, America's anti-God politicians, judges and lobbyists decided killing (abortion) our children was permissible. A reckless spin of a name change from "baby" to "fetus" was implemented to ease the conscience.
America's latest vogue, acceptance of same sex marriage and homosexuality, a blatant act of apostasy, has crept into and defiled the church and standard of life. Good is now called evil and evil is now called good. Vicious attacks from anti- God, hate filled creatures mocked and ridiculed Tim Tebow as he bent on one knee in an act of thanksgiving and prayer during a NFL football game. Recently a black basketball player announced he was a homosexual and was virtually pronounced a hero by the press and David Stern, commissioner of the NBA.
Is America under judgment and how did we repeat history and venture down the apostate road? Polls state 70-80 percent of Americans say they are Christians, so why did Christians let evil triumph over good? Could it be we are not what we say? Could it be we are apostate's, who go to church, say a prayer, throw a buck in the plate, and shake hands on Sunday, then lie, cheat and hate on Monday? America, like Israel, has driven God out of its government, its culture, and out of its national life.
When the twin towers fell, a shock wave cracked the foundation at Federal Hall - Americas foundation, where Washington's prophetic warning was issued. A godly form of government originated in 4-30 – 1789 at ground zero and ended at ground zero on 9-11-2001. We now are witnessing chaos, corruption, a shredded constitution, and like ancient Israel, a Muslim ruling over Gods people.
Credits and kudos to Jonathan Cahn, author of "The Harbinger." Jonathan details in-depth the nine ancient warnings of judgments and how he was led to and receive detailed instruction.
Jeff Henry
Rockwood
The kindergarten version of ancient Israel's destruction is summarized like this: Israel was living in peace and prosperity in the Promised Land. Israel turned their back on God and decided to venture down the path of apostasy. They choose sexual perversion, homosexually, worshipping other gods such as Canaanite worship which was pornographic that deemed material prosperity, physical satisfaction, and human pleasure over all else. Killing and sacrificing their children to Baal, Molech, and Anat, a goddess of sexuality and violence, became a standard in Israel.
Like ancient Israel, America was founded on Biblical principles, virtues and moral values. The America we view today lost its holy virginity in 1963 when anti-God political leaders and judges screamed foul and tossed God from our school systems. Today American universities and some public school systems have honored Islam (pagan god worship) by providing prayer rooms for worship.
In 1973, America's anti-God politicians, judges and lobbyists decided killing (abortion) our children was permissible. A reckless spin of a name change from "baby" to "fetus" was implemented to ease the conscience.
America's latest vogue, acceptance of same sex marriage and homosexuality, a blatant act of apostasy, has crept into and defiled the church and standard of life. Good is now called evil and evil is now called good. Vicious attacks from anti- God, hate filled creatures mocked and ridiculed Tim Tebow as he bent on one knee in an act of thanksgiving and prayer during a NFL football game. Recently a black basketball player announced he was a homosexual and was virtually pronounced a hero by the press and David Stern, commissioner of the NBA.
Is America under judgment and how did we repeat history and venture down the apostate road? Polls state 70-80 percent of Americans say they are Christians, so why did Christians let evil triumph over good? Could it be we are not what we say? Could it be we are apostate's, who go to church, say a prayer, throw a buck in the plate, and shake hands on Sunday, then lie, cheat and hate on Monday? America, like Israel, has driven God out of its government, its culture, and out of its national life.
When the twin towers fell, a shock wave cracked the foundation at Federal Hall - Americas foundation, where Washington's prophetic warning was issued. A godly form of government originated in 4-30 – 1789 at ground zero and ended at ground zero on 9-11-2001. We now are witnessing chaos, corruption, a shredded constitution, and like ancient Israel, a Muslim ruling over Gods people.
Credits and kudos to Jonathan Cahn, author of "The Harbinger." Jonathan details in-depth the nine ancient warnings of judgments and how he was led to and receive detailed instruction.
Jeff Henry
Rockwood
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