The Pepster
Dave James says:
Yes, I am aware of the statement which was first published on Apprising.org by Ken Silva – who was contacted directly by Charisma.
As far as I know, up until a couple of days ago, he has the only official release on company letterhead (which is also shown on his website) – with no original statement available anywhere else.
This story has been picked up by some others who have quoted the official statement on their websites as it comes from Apprising.
I know for a fact that Ken has received this statement from them personally and that his reporting on it is 100% accurate.
However, for whatever reason it has not been released or published elsewhere.
In response to the matter of setting the record straight, for now I will just leave it at the fact that this statement does not accurately reflect the entire matter.
Therefore, as of now, I stand by what I have written thus far and will correct it if and when all the facts make it appropriate to do so.
Laura Haynes says:
Hi Dave,
Thank you for your response of Feb 26th at 11:00am.
I contacted Charisma myself to see if they can/will put out something more official and I will let you know if/when I hear back from them. I do appreciate your honesty and willingness to set the record straight once you receive something that satisfies you that this is an official word from Charisma. That is all I ask.
I would like to point out, however, that when you quoted what was on the legal document(s), nowhere on there that I’ve read does it state that the attorneys are representing Jonathan Cahn HIMSELF, only his publisher – Charisma. I can understand how it would be assumed that Jonathan Cahn – the man – had something to do with pursuing you legally and how it could be easily overlooked but a mistake like that – (and I am only claiming that you simply made a mistake here, not that it was done on purpose) – can influence people to slander him – and, I can tell you, already has. Can you, in the meantime, quote anything official on any of your legal documents that says the attorneys are representing Jonathan Cahn himself? If not, I will have to go with “innocent until proven guilty” in this case – as I have not known Rabbi Cahn to be anything less than a Spirit-filled man of God who knows the scriptures.
As I stated in a private email to you, Jonathan Cahn never even pursued his publisher to publish his book – it was the other way around. He’s not the type to promote himself and refused others’ advice when they told him he needed to make a name for himself since most books are not published, etc. As a matter of fact, he rejected that advice outright. He simply prayed and
said to God that this is HIS message so HE was going to have to get it out. He asked God to do the work… and He did. Brannon Howse, on one of his interviews with him, asked him how he picked his publisher but the show went to commercial break and they got off the subject so he never had a chance to explain. I would have liked to have heard a two-part interview because
there was so much to cover and more could have been clarified without having to rush through everything. I listened to many interviews with Rabbi Cahn – ones that were not hostile toward him and where he was given the chance and the time to fully explain everything – and I thoroughly enjoyed them.
So for me to believe he’s now turned into some type of Mr. Hyde and is salivating at the mouth to sue you because he would rather now serve money than God is very difficult for me to believe.
But, again, I appreciate your willingness to set the record straight.
Dave James says:
Dave James says:
February 26, 2013 at 12:14 pm
I have no doubt that this is the official word from Charisma. That is not my concern.(And it does, without question, include inaccuracies based on speculation.)
And, yes, we have concrete reason to believe there is more to this, which we will deal with publicly at the appropriate time – and it has nothing to do with any significant departure from anything that has happened in the past.
The caricature that “he’s now turned into some type of Mr. Hyde and is salivating…” is specifically designed to skew the conversation and is a straw man because neither I nor anyone else would paint that picture. That is an unfortunate, unnecessary and disingenuous tactic in the same vein of the review by “Ladybug” on Amazon which is also largely a straw man that represents a significant distortion of reality on several points.
Once again, I confidently stand by what has been written.
Laura Haynes says:
Hi Dave,
I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree then… and I also stand by all that I have said. Let the LORD judge between us all.
Emilie LaFave says:
It’s so amazing how someone sets themselves up as being the
Supreme Authority on everything. Actually it’s disgusting.
There are many things in the Bible that can’t be totally
explained. Whose to say God didn’t direct the writing of
this book? YOU? Who are YOU? I know who you serve.
I won’t be visiting your site again.
Dave James says:
Emilie,
I don’t consider myself an authority on anything. It is only the Word of God that is the authority and against which we are to test all things. That is the instruction the Lord has given us. That is why he gave pastors and teachers to the church so that we might teach the truth and warn against error.
I don’t know if you read the article, or more importantly my book on this subject, but there are so many problems in the The Harbinger that it is fairly obvious that is it can’t be from God – God doesn’t make these kinds of mistakes. I have done nothing more than point out what the mistakes are – and I have tried to do so in a very fair and balanced way, acknowledging the good that The Harbinger has accomplished.
If you know of any errors in anything I have written, I will be glad take a look at revising those things. We need to make sure we are dealing with facts and the truth rather than engaging in ad hominem arguments.
I’m not sure whom you think I serve, but the desire of my heart for the last 30 years has been to serve the Lord ever since He saved me out of a terribly sinful life.
I trust you will give this a bit more consideration before simply writing off the ABI website and ministry.
Dave
Mark Fisk says:
Comment:
Strain out the gnat and swallow the camel.
The Typical Pharisees response I say.
Dave James says:
Comment:
Mark,
Would you mind elaborating a bit more concerning this being the response of a Pharisee?
Are you not concerned that the Word of God has been mishandled, historical facts have been misrepresented and the gospel has been distorted and doesn't even include the resurrection of Christ anywhere in the book?
These are extremely serious problems for a book that claims to be a message from God and need to be dealt with.
Dave
Author: Ray Grace
Fri 3/8/2013 2:06 AM
Comment:
Hooray for you David!
You have exonerated my first reading of who you are and what you do. As a 'Pastor' or 'Shepherd', you shoot the wounded your flock. If the Wolf comes in and tears up your flock, you simply go out with your 357 and 'Boom', they are no longer a problem. Unlike the Good Shepherd, who left the 99 to find the One, and carry him back on his shoulders to nurture him, it is much simpler to just 'be done with them'.
If you spent one tenth of your time building the Kingdom of Christ that you spend denouncing and destroying those who don't come up to your standard (Maybe Christ wouldn't come up to YOUR standard either), you could do something for the Kingdom.
I've read enough of your continual castigation and arrogant judgmentalism of those who don't read the Bible with your arrogant, 'personally perfect glasses on'. This is my last submission to you. You remind me too much of those Pharisees who drove me from the Church for 25 years until I realized their judgmentalism of me was between God and Them, not between God and Me!
I ask God in Jesus' Name to forgive me if I am wronging you in any way, even as I pray for those whom you destroy and judge as evil because they are not as 'holy' as you. I simply don't want to keep reading your hatred and Pharisee speeches any more, as they drag me to darkness, not to the Light of Jesus.
Sincerely, Goodbye!
Ray Grace
Author: Dave James
Fri 3/8/2013 2:32 AM
Comment:
Ray,
I'm always puzzled by these types of emotionally charged comments which are filled with more than a double-dose of exactly the types of things I am being charged with - and using language and a tone that would have almost certainly have immediately taken me out of the ministry had I ever taught, preached, written or spoken to anyone in anything even approaching this.
I'm fairly confident that if we were to sit down and actually talk face-to-face that even if we disagreed about certain issues, you would realize that my heart is to be exactly the opposite of what you accuse me of - even if I'm not always entirely successful.
I would also be surprised if you would feel free to blast away in a personal conversation in a way even remotely close to what you have said here.
I have to wonder if you would feel comfortable having this read by someone you were discipling to have a genuine ministry in the lives of others.
I think this is the first time you have commented and so I had no idea that you felt I was a hate-filled Pharisee (unless perhaps you wrote personally or using a different email address). And I do sincerely apologize if my writing style or the issues I deal with has left you with which before the Lord I really hope is a wrong impression.
I would be glad to correspond privately to try to deal with this if I have genuinely offended you as a brother in Christ.
Dave
The Pepster says:
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Comment:
David,
Your reply to Ray and others who see in your words and your attempts to justify yourself the real fruits of what you are, is evidence that you are precisely what they say you are - nothing but today's version of the religious opposition that has plagued the human race since Cain slew Abel.
This is not hyperbole - listen to yourself - these are your own words, when Frank Fisk and others have tagged you correctly as nothing but a modern Pharisee, ("Strain out the gnat and swallow the camel.")
The Typical Pharisees response I say:
"Would you mind elaborating a bit more concerning this being the response of a Pharisee?
Are you not concerned that the Word of God has been mishandled, historical facts have been misrepresented and the gospel has been distorted and doesn't even include the resurrection of Christ anywhere in the book?
These are extremely serious problems for a book that claims to be a message from God and need to be dealt with."
Rather than going to prayer to the Lord, to listen to how you describe The Harbinger, and to ask God to illuminate your understanding, rather than believing yourself to be "correct" (in fact you are grossly wrong, and Lord willing, I will make this quite evident in my book on every point you attempt to raise about the book); you instead justify yourself.
Ray Grace hit the proverbial nail on its head in writing that rather than use the biblical method to resolve a doctrinal issue, you instead go for the 357 Magnum and shoot the brother with whom you disagree. He used the metaphor that fits you and the others in this controversy of your creation. Had you and they pursued this biblically rather than make it into a witch hunt, and doing it like your religious predecessors throughout history have done; you would have avoided much hurt, pain, and confusion in a lot of people, especially in your own lives. And don't give me the martyr's complex, because it is you and your colleagues whom have conducted this year-long witch hunt and inquisition against a brother in Christ.
You lack mercy, you lack compassion, you lack understanding, and most of all you lack the grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and have done this in accordance to the flesh, justifying yourselves by twisting the meaning of Scripture to destroy another person and their reputation.
This is not a hermeneutical matter, it is not a matter of biblical accuracy, and it is not a matter of historical accuracy; these are claims you make, but you are entirely wrong in every one, and I prove it in the book that is forthcoming. Your work is a work of the flesh - of the mind and ego of man and the twisting of words to mean what the author of The Harbinger - Pastor Jonathan Cahn - did not give them.
What's more, you have not corrected those who claim that Jonathan Cahn claims to be a prophet; those who call him a mystic, a Kabbalist, a false prophet, a false teacher, a heretic, and other unfortunate slanderous epithets that are entirely baseless, but made by people whom have followed your misguided teachings about this book.
Instead of justifying yourself, you should seek repentance and ask that God grant you the grace that you have withheld from your brother Jonathan Cahn.
The Pepster says:
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Comment: Dear David,
In the face of criticism you fall back to justifying even your own human mistakes, and making all sorts of excuses for them. I've been following your ongoing exchanges, and it amazes me that there is no limit to what you will justify in yourself, even when brought to task on serious inaccuracies in what you have charged others with and with your own narrative.
Who then is with the Lord, the man who incessantly attacks another in His name and claims His cause, or the man who forgives and speaks nothing of the one who is doing the attacking? Judge for yourself. You and your colleagues have been on a witch hunt against The Harbinger and against its author, Pastor Jonathan Cahn, whom T.A. McMahon and you have mis-labeled "rabbi" someplace else (to bring his ordination into question and delegitimize him in the eyes of the public) for a year. He has done nothing to you or to Mr. McMahon, or to your other colleagues. Yet you have leveled a continuous campaign against this servant of Christ as though he were worse than the devil himself. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves. In the name of Christ whom you claim to serve, you wield the sword of the Word against a brother! This is not biblical, it is not ethical, and it is uncharacteristic of a servant of Christ.
And your feigned piety is contemptible in my sight. Like those of the Scribes and Pharisees and doctors and experts of the Law who feigned respect and piety to Christ in order to entrap Him. Don't tell me that this does not apply here, because it does. You and your colleagues interviewed Jonathan Cahn only to use what he said against him in your book. Disgraceful. Utterly shameful! And you justify yourselves before God as claiming that you serve Christ in this manner. Jesus said, "If you were blind, there would be no sin, but because you say 'we see,’ your sin remains."
Louis Caruana says:
Comment:
Having just finished reading "The Harbinger" with my Bible at hand to verify the scriptures quoted, I find the author's message real, compelling and no reason not to doubt his intent, or his warning, which should be clear to any one with an open mind. The ancient mystery was revealed in scripture, is not this one, from his book, any different, although its ending hasn't be played out yet. And to think, we as a nation, could effect a good out come. itis that simple but difficut at the same time.
Dave James says:
Comment:
Hi Louis,
I did the same thing when reading The Harbinger, carefully examining the Bible as I went - and I read The Harbinger multiple times and studied it for hours. There are significant biblical problems as well as clear historical problems. The overall call to repentance is much-needed - but the Word of God can't be handled the way it is in The Harbinger. I don't know if you've read this article, but it only touches on some of the many more problems I discuss in my book. Jonathan Cahn presents one side of the story he has created, but there is a much different side of the story that better corresponds with the Bible, history and current events. I would encourage you to withhold judgment until taking time to hear the other side of this very important issue.
Dave
The Pepster says:
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Dear Dave,
Since you have chosen to ignore and not post my replies to you – that is your prerogative as your web site’s interlocutor of religious topics – I will then post these on my web site and e-mail it to all who are in my address list and have them distribute it to as many people as each person can, and so on. What I have written you is an inconvenient truth to the months and year that you have expended of your time and your energies – most of which has been in respect to this witch hunt – been devoted to the delegitimization, marginalization, discreditation, and destruction of another – a brother in Christ, and one whom has said and done nothing against you or any of your colleagues either before, during, or even now. You ought to be ashamed of yourself – you believe yourself to be so self-righteous, so correct, so justified that you fail to see the level of where you have brought yourself and your ministry and your calling in Christ.
Instead of seeking God’s face in humiliation and self-reflection, in circumspection and repentance, you become even more strident in your denunciations of Jonathan Cahn, in your self-justification, and harden your neck against all criticisms of what you and your colleagues have done to this man. Not only are you wrong in your attitude and spirit, but you grossly incorrect in making this entire affair a question of biblical hermeneutics, when your book is a testimony that it is not hermeneutics that is at play here, but your own personal perceptions of what you think The Harbinger says.
You know as well as I do that in regards to religious matters hermeneutics is to religion as patriotism is to politics; the last refuge of a scoundrel. Now I’m not calling you a scoundrel, but reading your book makes it abundantly clear to a thinking mind that it is not hermeneutics that is at play, but your version of what you think The Harbinger is saying, and we both know that your analogy of the fun house fits very well to your version of the story. Hiding behind hermeneutics to make your case against Rabbi Cahn’s work is nothing but a play at projecting heresy upon both the author and his work and then proceed from there to make your case without necessarily having to correctly explain hermeneutically why you’ve made such a case. Your verbal gymnastics around Rabbi Cahn’s narrative does not present this case, and this can be presented point by point. This is the inconvenient truth that Lord willing will be made evident.
You are serving a purpose here, because you and your colleagues are the religious equivalent of the Sanhedrin in our day and age. You have made this claim upon yourselves as the arbiters of scriptural integrity and theological correctness, and since you claim to sit in Moses' seat, which you really don’t, but you make that claim for yourselves as “discernment ministries,” you fit the bill as the modern version of the Sanhedrin, the Catholic Inquisition, and every man-made religious construct of destruction that the human race has ever erected against the face of God to obstruct His purposes and persecute His servants in the name of God and now in the last two thousand years – in the name of Christ.
Every so-called ministry created for the sole purpose of attacking ANYONE within the body of Christ DOES NOT SERVE God. Do not use Paul the Apostle against Peter in Galatians to justify yourself; Paul did not spend a year attacking and delegitimizing Peter and the other Jewish Christians for their behavior, but used the incident to illustrate what the Jerusalem Council agreed – both Jews and Gentiles – that salvation is by grace alone and not of works, and that circumcision according to the Law of Moses and of Israel (that is conversion to Judaism) was unnecessary for Gentiles who were coming to faith in Christ because God had already circumcised their hearts and given them the Holy Spirit as the evidence of this, as Peter made clear in his discourse to the great Nazarene Council in Jerusalem, and Paul has made clear in several places where he writes in the Holy Spirit of this topic.
But I challenge you to find anywhere in New Testament where a Christian makes a public display of another Christian and his ministry over a theological disagree. You will not find it, because the Scriptures teach that such disagreements are to be resolved privately. The very last thing that anyone wants to do to another brother in Christ is to do what you and your colleagues have done here to Jonathan Cahn, and who knows how many others. You are in sin, and if you persist in this, you will find yourself as the great Jewish Sage Rabban Gamaliel I said, “find yourselves in opposition to God Himself.” David, I don’t know how clear I can make this to you; REPENT! REPENT! REPENT!
Louis Caruana says:
Dave,
You say there are significant biblical problems as well as clear historical problems with the book. Please elucidate, I am unsure of which you might be referring to. While I respect your judgement on withhold judgement on the ‘message’ provided in the book, the author himself says he is not ‘imparting’ a message but a warning. That is the problem I see with many, they cannot see what his warning is because it is being rejected out of human nature, not of disbelieve, I think. Again, just what is the other side of this very important issue, I want to be informed. Thank you.
Lou
Dave James says:
Lou,
I enumerate a number of them in this article – which I assume you have read. These are very real problems. I go into a lot more detail in my book – and if you’re interested it is available for $7.50 in Kindle format and reduced price of $10.50 for the paperback version (not at all trying to make a sale, but just to say that the problems are serious and numerous enough to justify a whole book, making it difficult to go into much detail in a blog comment response – and I just want to let you know that the evidence is readily accessible if you’re interested).
You can find the foreword and preface my book in an earlier blog here, on The Berean Call website and on their Facebook page, or I can email it to you in pdf format if you wish, just let me know). When you read particularly the preface you will see that I understand and agree with the message that America needs to repent, but that a specific warning from Isaiah 9:10 can be found as an exact template that has played out in the U.S. since 9/11 is not supported either biblically or historically. Again, my rejection of the book is not because of the call to repentance and is not coming out of human nature because I definitely agree with that.
Examples of three major biblical problems are 1) dealing with Isaiah 9:10 completely independent of its biblical context (the preceding verses are not mentioned) which is the most basic and most egregious error a Bible teacher can make, 2) the application of the Jewish Shemitah (Sabbath year) to the world in general and America specifically, 3) failure to present the gospel in anything approaching a complete way in a chapter that is supposed to be dedicated to that in theory (neither that Christ died on the cross for our sins, nor that salvation is by grace through faith, nor “believe,” nor the resurrection of Christ are mentioned anywhere in that chapter or the book.
The main historical errors include the fact that even upon just a little closer examination that none of the claimed harbingers form anything approaching the exact matches claimed in the book. For the most part, they aren’t even loose parallels.
Since I have written at length about the other side of this important issue, the information is readily available to anyone who wishes to be more informed.
Beyond what I have written there are a number of articles by others on the internet, including at least one that quotes very extensively from my book that are also helpful.
As far as whether he believes he is imparting a message or a warning – I don’t think there’s any practical difference between the two given that he believes he has discovered and revealed an “ancient mystery” that no one has ever seen before in the Scriptures.
This is not about Jonathan Cahn’s character, integrity or sincerity as a believer, a Bible teacher or pastor – it is only about whether he is right or wrong in most of his book.
I hope this helps to clarify some of this.
Dave
The Pepster says:
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David,
HOW DARE YOU PRESUME TO JUDGE ANOTHER SERVANT OF CHRIST AND THEN TO POST THAT HE IS A FALSE TEACHER WITHOUT FIRST HAVING SPOKEN WITH THAT PERSON AND ALLOWED HIM TO PRESENT TO YOU A DEFENSE FOR THE FAITH THAT HE HOLDS!? (Exodus 23:1, Deuteronomy 17:6, Deuteronomy 19:15, Proverbs 18:13, Acts 23:3) HOW DARE YOU!?
And don’t claim that you did this with the interview of April, 2012, because you and your colleague used the contents of that interview for your book, not to resolve the matter, but to entrap Jonathan Cahn, and not to clarify the differences and resolve them, but to use them as a polemic against your brother in Christ. HOW DARE YOU! SPEAK OF DUPLICITY AND AVARICE!
Do you not realize that Scripture teaches that if you have a charge against anyone in the church, that person much be allowed to speak on their behalf, (Matthew 18:15, John 7:50-51, 8:17, 2Corinthians 13:1, Hebrews 10:28) Especially in this case, because you are dealing with an Elder; an ordained minister of Christ. (1 Timothy 5:19) And have you forgotten the words of Our Lord, which serves as a warning, that if the religious opposition of His day called Him a heretic, a false prophet, even the Lord of the Flies himself; then what could await Jesus’ followers? The Lord warning us in the following manner:
“It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!”
(Matthew 10:25)
But this is in regard to those outside of the faith, never did it anticipate that some within the faith would fall prey to labeling others within the body these slanderous and false epithets which they employ to discredit and disarm their targets in the eyes of other Christians, most of whom are unaware of the issues which surround these and those who make them.
Disagreements between brethren are to be handled in a biblical manner, by consensus between parties in a private setting, so as not to cause any misunderstanding that would arise out of the meeting and what is discussed therein. They’re not to be handled in a public forum, where one party extracts without the other party’s consent or permission their intellectual property; then airs an interview publicly and uses content from that interview and the other party’s intellectual property without their say-so to write a polemic against that person, while they profit from the sales of this polemic but do not compensate the other party for having used material (intellectual property) for their polemic. Not only is this unethical by any standards, it is un-Christian, it is unbiblical, and it is unscriptural by all standards and norms which constitute good, honest, and forthright behavior by a servant of Christ. This is without question the greatest breach of all of these that I have ever witnessed in my lifetime, and especially in my thirty-seven years of service to God by His grace and calling.
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