Another Discussion On The Harbinger

The following is another discussion on The Harbinger between myself and author David James on The Harbinger. It is in reply to his responses to his readers.

Author: normanlabat Thu 11/22/2012 3:27 AM

Comment:

i am curious about the final chapter which talks about baruch who was really named barry. what's that all about?
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Author: Dave James Thu 11/22/2012 3:32 AM
Comment:

In the Bible, Baruch is a scribe who was to write down what the prophet gave him. In the story Nouriel Kaplan was called Barry as a child because his full name is Baruch Nouriel Kaplan. So, it is a literary device used by the author - and it seems for the purpose of giving the author himself some sort of biblical authority - or authority from God - although he would undoubtedly deny this.
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MY REPLY Submitted on Sunday, December 30th, 2012

Dear David,

I cannot speak for Rabbi Cahn, but I can speak for myself here, and I detect from your sarcasm (below a Christian) and what you have written, that once again, you are attributing to what Rabbi Cahn has written in his book more than what he put into it. This is intellectual dishonesty, because you have placed in the mind of another person, as in this case the person to whom you addressed your answer to; the impression that what you claim Jonathan Cahn meant when he wrote what he wrote, he did in fact mean as you define it; a complete falsehood and fabrication on your part. This is another trait that is not in keeping with the proper behavior of a Christian. One should not presume upon others to attribute to their writings and public statements meanings they did not have, especially believers. One does not redefine the meaning of what other people say or write. You do this repeatedly throughout your book. Why do you do this?
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Author: Alex Thu 11/22/2012 3:32 AM

Comment:

I understand that reading the scriptures, especially prophetic books can seem to mean different things to different people; but I'm going to make my comment short and relevant to both points of view...yes, in the past many of us have made assumptions based on speculation only for there is not enough written about a topic, time, nation etc....to claim this or that as facts when there is not enough of it. This is what I mean... many people believe (sic) that the promise to Israel made by the always truthful GOD somehow is revoked when sinners act like sinners and now he will forget his promise to Israel and place it on the church....NO, NO, NO. They are two different entities and they have different purposes and two distinct futures all though in the end they will both come together when GOD makes this happen. Neither will be foresaken. this, that...only speculation. I got to admit the Harbenger is a great book, that inspires repentence, but has't the bible said this all along, "repent for the kingom of heaven is at hand" Is something that GOD the son said when he was walking the earth. But Israel is Israel, the Church is the Church, America is America... let's not beging to start swapping one for the other...please
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Author: Dave James Thu 11/22/2012 3:36 AM

Comment:

I am pretty much with you until you talk about the distinction between the Church and Israel is merely speculation. It is not speculation when it can be shown that the Scriptures clearly teach this. Even for those who would reject this interpretation, they would not suggest it is speculation on our part.

Unfortunately, although The Harbinger talks about repentance - it does not tell how to repent or be saved - and even if for this reason alone it is not even a "good book" let alone a great one. Take a look at his chapter that is supposed to be about salvation - it does not mention faith, belief or trust even one time - and neither does it mention the resurrection of Christ apart from which there is no gospel.
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MY REPLY Posted on Sunday, December 30th, 2012

This is a most unfortunate statement on your part. How do you presume to criticize another servant of Christ because according to you, he does not measure up to your standards!? How dare you speak like this of another brother in Christ! How dare you sir! This is uncalled for. I stated early on that as time progressed it would become apparent to your readers and to many others by your statements, your claims, and by your behavior in this matter; who truly is speaking God’s Word and for God in this matter. Have you never read that the testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy!? As it says in the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ:

Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” (Revelation 19:10)

Do you not realize that if one is calling another to repentance, who are you to stand in God's way and protest the manner in which he is being called!? Have you not read the Scripture where Christ’s disciples come to the Lord Jesus protesting that others were casting demons out of people in His name, and what was Our Lord’s answer to them?

John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.” But Jesus said, “Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. For he who is not against us is for us. For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.”
”

(Mark 9:38-41)

What is it about this statement that you have overlooked? What is it that drives people like you to hurl stones at their fellow brethren in the name of Jesus Christ without a single regard to that name or to that brother!? You have a complete disregard with what you are doing against your brother in Christ! Are you aware of this? I don’t think so. Therefore the Lord Jesus Christ has spoken about religious people – yes, even among God’s people – religious people, who are quick to hurl stones at other Christians in the name of Christ, thinking they are doing a service to God, and stand in judgment of them and their work and ministries, and this is what He has said:

And He was saying to them, “Take care what you listen to. By your standard of measure it will be measured to you; and more will be given you besides.”

(Mark 4:24)

“For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.”

(Matthew 7:2)

Do you think it is for nothing that the Lord Jesus Christ has said this? It is precisely for moments and situations like this. History is replete with religious men judging other men as heretics and done every kind of evil against them in the name of God. Do you think that because you and the other critics of The Harbinger call yourselves Christians and invoke the name of Christ, you will not bear your own guilt over what you are doing? It is not a cult or a cult leader you are now pursuing with a vengeance, but person, a brother in Christ, and other Christians with whom you disagree over doctrinal issues pertaining to topical teachings written in the form of a fictitious literary work! Are you aware of what you are doing? Of course you’ll retort, declaring you are fully aware, and by your own words you will be either justified or condemned, according to the Scriptures. You won’t lose your salvation, but you will be made to account for what you’ve written about a pastor in God’s service, and your work in this regard will be burned up. Do you really want this?
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Author: Vicki Thu 11/22/2012 3:36 AM

Comment:

I am reading The Harbinger and must say that I am enjoying the book. I feel the reaction to The Harbinger is similar to the reaction over The Shack. Both books are fiction - and need to be regarded as such. While there are many books that inspire, encourage, and possibly point to some aspect of truth they should never take the place of nor be viewed as truth. Jesus is truth. His Holy Word is truth. We must be dilligent to rightly divide the truth and not be enslaved or led astray. In the last days, even the elect will be deceived. May we have eyes to see and ears to hear what THE Spirit is saying. You can read the Harbinger and not be deceived that it is an accurate reflection of prophesy. And, you can read The Harbinger and be reminded that it is to Jesus we must turn. You just have to remember that the plumb line is The Word of God, not of any other author. Maybe there are correlations to America and Isreal - but America is NOT Isreal. Yes, God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever and we would be remiss in America to think that we can escape judegment. But...Jesus said that He did not give us a spirit of fear. He reminded his disciples to fear not for I am with you...He sent His precious Holy Spirit to be my teacher. Praise His Name! Let The Teacher, teach!
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Author: Dave James Thu 11/22/2012 3:42 AM

Comment:

The reaction to the Shack was hardly overdone - it was filled with outright heresy on any number of points. If anyone thinks that the Shack's depiction of the Lord is anywhere close to accurate it raises the question as to whether that person knows him at all - because it is so radically different than what the His Word teaches.

Concerning The Harbinger being fiction - the author has stated publicly multiple times that the fiction is only a framework, but that what he has written is 90% fact.

I have an article here on the website that deals with the matter of Christian fiction.

In Ephesians, Paul said that the Lord had given pastors, teachers and evangelists to the church for the building up of the Body of Christ. The Holy Spirit is the One who convicts our heart of the truth of what we read in the Scriptures or what we hear from a teacher who is faithful to the Word of God.
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MY REPLY: For once, you and I are in agreement on something. Well, we’ve agreed on some other things too.
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Author: Patty Thu 11/22/2012 3:43 AM

Comment:

It is obvious that you don't agree with the book, The Harbinger, but as a Christian I feel it is a great book that gets a person to really THINK about the things that have come to pass in our world, specifically our Country, and to remind us that we have 'rationalized' away the beliefs and morals of our Country for long enough and that IT IS TIME to TURN BACK TO GOD. I'm always stunned at the arrogancy of people, especially in government, when they use the phrase "...and may God bless America!"...why should God bless America?! We've done nothing but run him out of our homes, our schools, our government. This country no longer stands for anything decent, so we fall for everything that is indecent. I guess what I'm trying to say is that maybe you should stop 'knocking' this book! How do you know that God isn't using it to bring others back to Him?! Are you, then, being a 'stumbling block' to others?!
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Author: Dave James Thu 11/22/2012 3:48 AM

Comment:

Of course it is time to turn to God, but as I note clearly in the article, my book and in another reply to Alex's comment - The Harbinger is absolutely not a great book.

There I stated: Unfortunately, although The Harbinger talks about repentance – it does not tell how to repent or be saved – and even if for this reason alone it is not even a “good book” let alone a great one. Take a look at his chapter that is supposed to be about salvation – it does not mention faith, belief or trust even one time – and neither does it mention the resurrection of Christ apart from which there is no gospel.

I have no doubt that God has used The Harbinger to direct people to him - but he also used a demon possessed girl in Ephesus to tell people to listen to Paul's message - after which Paul delivered her. This is hardly a model to follow. God also used the Babylonians to get people to turn back to him, but that hardly means that we should emulate the Babylonian tactics simply because God used them to his glory. This pragmatic view of the Scriptures and the work of God is completely unbiblical. The end never justifies the means if the means are unbiblical.

Warning people of this and the associated danger is not being a stumbling block. For example, in my book I clearly presented the gospel, while it is not clear at all in The Harbinger. That is what is a stumbling block.
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MY REPLY:

Dear David,
Again you are incorrect in your application and interpretation of Scripture. In your quick response to this reader, you reply “I have no doubt that God has used The Harbinger to direct people to him,” an amazing admission on your part, that God is indeed using The Harbinger to bring people to repentance and to Christ, as has been reported throughout the nation; but you continue by writing, that in Ephesus “but he (meaning God, is what you appear to be saying) also used a demon possessed girl in Ephesus to tell people to listen to Paul's message.”

You are equating the rantings of a demon-possessed woman to the writings of a Holy Spirit-filled born again brother in Christ! Do you realize this!? You're even wrong in your interpretation of what did occur in the Book of Acts. Let me explain.

First, you are incorrect, because God did not use “a demon possessed girl in Ephesus to tell people about Paul’s message,” as you infer, but in order to discredit Paul and his associates, and the message of the Gospel they were bringing to the Jewish community and to the Gentiles of that city. Below is the passage of Scripture which records the event:

It happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a slave-girl having a spirit of divination met us, who was bringing her masters much profit by fortune-telling. Following after Paul and us, she kept crying out, saying, “These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation.” She continued doing this for many days. But Paul was greatly annoyed, and turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her!” And it came out at that very moment.

(Acts 16:16-18)

Why would Paul be annoyed if what this woman was speaking the truth about him and his message? They were proclaiming the way of salvation. It was because this woman was both demon-possessed, and the demon within this woman, practiced divination, and if anyone in the Jewish Community in that city would hear her, it would bring discredit upon Paul and the others with him with the people they were trying to reach. Why is this the case? Because, as you well know, according to Jewish Law no self-respecting Jew or God-fearing Gentile would ever dabble in the occult or hire a spiritist or a medium for counsel. Therefore it was to discredit Paul and his message of the Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ that the demon made statements that appeared to be correct. How can you compare this with the message of The Harbinger!?
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Author: Alex Thu 11/22/2012 10:03 AM

Comment:

Sorry, I did't mean to imply that the distinction between the church and Israel is speculation, you are right Dave it is not and I appologize that it came out that way. The bible is full of biblical truths that is obvious right...so why do we continue to bring about a complete doctrine on a single phrases in the bible that is never mentioned anywhere else when we have so much solid teaching in the scriptures....does our generation have itchy ears for teachings not supported by the bible? IF I was to say that the sabbath which we all know what it means ...but instead I said that every 7 days GOD will punish the nation to a certain degree because...fill in the blank.....and I tried to convince you that's how GOD uses the sabbath for or why GOD made the sabbath ....you should be able to know that it is eaither a lie or mere speculation becuase no were in the bible does it says that right...time and time again the bible gives its true meaning about the sabbath and even then the teachers of the law gave Jesus a hard time about him healing people on the sabbath and Jesus taught them a little more about the sabbath....what I'm saying is read your bible there are so many legit prophesies there. Know what's biblical and don't be taken away by every wind of doctrine. And you are so right Dave...any book that is suppose to bring any MESSAGE about GOD but doesn't care to go into who is Jesus and nor does it tell you how we can be saved...well need I say more?
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Author: Dave James Thu 11/22/2012 10:06 AM
Comment:
Hey, thanks Alex.

Actually, I thought that may be what you meant - but I just wanted to clear it up for someone else who might read it.

You're right about there are enough clear things we can teach about - we don't have to make things up. And a point I make in my book is, if it's not in the text someone made it up.

Happy Thanksgiving.

(I'm in the Philippines right now - so I'm missing the holiday back home.)
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Author: Ray Grace Fri 11/23/2012 4:35 AM

Comment:

Your comments on the Harbinger Book remind me of my youth. I was raised in a group of people who were so holy that God himself had to take off His Sandals to walk in their presence. These people and their Pharisee attitude drove me from God for a quarter century of my life because no one could be saved using their rules. I walked away from God until He let me know that what went on between them and me was not between them and me, but between them and Himself! It was after that that I found, reading the Bible, that the only time Jesus Corrected Himself was when He spoke of those who 'hurt one of these little ones', meaning HIS little ones, that it would be better if they had a' millstone hung about their neck and they were drowned in the depths of the sea, No, it would be better for them if they had NEVER BEEN BORN!"
It's always easier to tear down than to build, to use 'man's knowledge of God' (Theology) to explain why no one is right but you. If you were right, I'd have to go back to Jesus and tell him what I did at the beginning of my wandering in the desert, 'No one can be saved by these standards, I'd just as well go it alone'. Fortunately, I met the Jesus who is the "Good Shepherd" at the end of my wandering. He's not the hireling who takes his 357 pistol to 'do-away' with the wounded little ones who survived the attack of the Wolf, but the "ONE who leaves the 99 and goes into the desert to pick up and nurture and bring back the wounded 'Little Ones'.
I thank the Father God that I have met this Jesus. None of us can make it without his Loving Care, but many are willing to be Pharisees, and to use the '357' on those who don't make it according their 'gospel'.

Ray Grace
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Author: Dave James Fri 11/23/2012 4:54 AM
Comment:

Ray,

I'm sorry I offended you with what I wrote. I would encourage you to consider reading my book where I explain myself more fully and try to be as gracious as possible in acknowledging the good things about The Harbinger.

Jesus spent a lot of time saying, "You have heard it said, but I say unto you..." - that was extensive correction. And his spent a huge amount of time on correcting wrong thinking / theology - so I'm not sure what you mean that Jesus on corrected on one occasion.

Beyond that the prophets and apostles were continually confronting and correcting false teachers based upon the Word of God. I think I have been have careful to show that "corrective" thing I have said is grounded in Scripture. In Ephesians Paul wrote that "he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, pastors/teachers and evangelists for the building up of the Body of Christ." We have a tremendous responsibility to teach people when serious error is brought into the church. Paul told Timothy that in the last days there would be many false teachers. Peter and Jude warned about this as well.

Concerning being a Pharisee: That's a pretty strong word. Would you mind explaining what you mean when you refer to me in that way? And also what I actually said in the article that caused you to come to that conclusion?

I was saved 28 years ago from a life of wickedness and sin by God's wonderful grace. I have been serving Him full time for the last 25 years, as a teacher, elder, Bible institute founder and director and a missionary for 16 years in Eastern Europe. This isn't to say that doing these thing necessarily means someone isn't a Pharisee - but I do think it is at least an indication that they do not wish to be.

I'm in the Manila as I write this - and today I gave 2 keynote messages and 3 seminars that focused on being a better Christian teacher who reflects the love and grace of God in everything we say and do that our students might become more like Christ - and that we are all completely dependent upon the Cross of Christ, the power of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God to bring about change of any eternal value. Again, if I am a Pharisee, it is not because I want to be - and my guess is that the 1300 or so that were in attendance would probably say that this is a false and unfair charge. But I am open to correction and always wish to be teachable.

So, if you could be more specific, that would be helpful.

In His Loving Care,
Dave
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MY REPLY: Talk about tooting one’s horn. Let your works speak for themselves sir. Let them be written in heaven, or be burned up. Why should your whereabouts really matter? According to the teachings and precepts of Our Lord, he who is least in the kingdom of heaven will be greater than you or I, or anyone else on this list. Why do you set yourself above other servants of Christ? This is not the behavior that we ought to emulate. (Proverbs 18:12, 22:4, Ephesians 4:2, Philippians 2:3, Colossians 3:12, James 1:21, 1Peter 5:5 Perhaps it might do us all good to listen to what Ray Grace wrote, which I quote above to remind all of us of what he said. His plain and simple prose spoke volumes to me. I hope they did to you too.
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