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Laura Haynes says:
October 9, 2012 at 11:14 am
A comment was made by Brannon Howse on his October 1st show that disturbed me greatly. He was talking about the fact that others, even Rabbi Cahn himself, has requested going back on Brannon’s program to clarify more misconceptions and Brannon ACTUALLY said the following and I quote, “When you go to reprint your book again, give us a chapter to express our concerns so we get equal time.”
Now there was a day, not to long ago, when Brannon thought it was horrible that the government wanted to do this very same type of thing with conservative/Christian websites,. i.e. give an alternative view just off to the side, so why would he now change his views about this type of thing? I propose that – whatever spirit was controlling our governmental leaders to want to do this with websites is the same spirit that is currently controlling Brannon Howse and I, for one, am praying for him to see the light. This speaks volumes to me.
I don’t know if you feel the same way about this Dave but, if not, I think you should correct Brannon on his views.
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Dave James says:
October 9, 2012 at 11:41 am
Jose,
Obviously, there is no way to respond in detail to all that you have written. So, I will just touch on a couple of points.
In general, you have engaged in straw man argumentation: You have mischaracterized what I have said or what you think I believe and then rebutted that. I would also rebut someone who held those views – but I do not.
1. Use of extra-biblical material: Absolutely extra-biblical material can be a reference – including the Zohar as a hostile witness. So, I’m not sure why you and others have created a straw man regarding my views when the point I make in my book is not about any use of such material – but the suggestion in Cahn’s message on “The mystery of the skull” in which he says concerning part of the Zohar, “God just put it in there.” When he does that, he is arguing for inspiration by God of at least that part – which is exactly what he says about Daschle. This is the point of contention – and a legitimate one, whether or not someone agrees with me.
2. I fully believe God can and does intervene in human affairs. I’m completely baffled as to why you have brought up the two witnesses twice. I fully believe that we will be entering a time of signs and wonders as Daniel’s 70th week plays out – as the world will once again be in an Old Testament-like era. But again, obviously, I don’t have either the time nor the inclination to develop in this forum a biblical theology of signs and wonders (although I am working on a book) and dispensational theology.
3. I absolutely don’t disagree with the message of repentance in The Harbinger – or that America is in trouble and is either under or soon will be under God’s judgment. I have stated that extremely clearly in the book and on many other occasions – so I am completely baffled by how anyone could begin to suggest that I have dismissed the warnings in The Harbinger. I teach and preach on those things regularly.
I agree that time will tell. (And I think we may be beginning to see some things happening to make this even more clear.)
Dave
THE PEPSTER REPLIES: David, your mischaracterization of me is an attempt at projecting your own behavior at me while deflecting the excesses of your own. You simply cannot bring yourself to even ask if there is the remote possibility that after all that you’ve said and done on this topic, after all of the man hours you’ve spent on your book about another man’s book, and after all of the attention you’ve given him and his book, without the least bit of grace shown to him; you might need to reexamine your own heart in this, and reassess just how far off the rails you and your colleagues have fallen? Where is the humility in this?
Accusing me and others of creating a straw man is a clever ploy on your part, but it is beneath a servant of Christ, because it is used in debates as means to deflect attention away from oneself, and away from a valid argument, and onto the opposition in order to convince and win bystanders and the audience to one’s side in an argument.
You don’t get it , man! You either willfully have hardened yourself against criticisms about your book, which you’ve learned to expect, or you simply are completely blinded by convincing yourself that your cause is right and therefore anyone who would dare to question it, and the methods used, and its conclusions must be wrong, after all you did spend all of that time and effort researching, and writing your book. I’m sure Hitler spent a lot of time researching and writing Mein Kanf, and Marx his Das Capital, but does the man hours they put into these works mitigate the madness in them?
I exhort you to reconsider prayerfully before the Lord for your own good sir. Let us agree on one thing; let us pray for one another that the Lord Himself will show us both and all those enmeshed in this controversy His light and His truth. You do not have a monopoly on truth, and neither do I. Let us both come before our Father in heaven and ask His help.
God bless and keep everyone here in His truth. One sidebar before I go to bed; you may have spoken “prophetically” above in writing that ‘we may be beginning to see some things happening to make this even more clear.’ Your correct, I’m in the process of writing an examination of your book. I had hoped that it would dissuade you from continuing this campaign against Cahn any further, but judging from your replies to my posts and those who disagree with you, I seriously doubt it . This is spiritual in nature.
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Dave James says:
October 9, 2012 at 12:41 pm
Laura,
I think perhaps you are making more out of this than it is.
As I recall, Brannon has already had Rabbi Cahn on the air twice. Beyond that, Rabbi Cahn has had well over 100 interviews and made his case to millions of people. He is hardly lacking venues. There are no new misconceptions and as far as I can tell, he has already addressed them at least once in more than one place. He is not saying anything new.
So, all Brannon has done is request some equitable exposure in Cahn’s venue – which is his book. You really can’t be serious about comparing this to the government intrusion issue of the “Fairness Doctrine.” Surely you realize that you can’t begin to compare the two things that aren’t even remotely similar. This is quite a leap of logic.
I don’t know exactly what you’re suggesting concerning the “spirit” controlling Brannon – but if you mean the obvious, then you’re venturing into a realm that is well beyond anything we have said concerning The Harbinger.
Unfortunately, this is a consistently repeating pattern – we are criticized for what we have said with a level of rhetoric that is multiple times higher than what we’re being accused of in the same breath. I have been at a total loss to understand how our critics have not realized what they have been doing.
As I said months ago, this has spun so far out of control that the underlying spiritual battle is on full display.
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Jose says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
October 9, 2012 at 12:56 pm
Dear Dave,
As I have made this observation before, and I do so here again, it will become evident as the wheat and the tares grow, whose works are those that will be consumed by fire, and whose works those will be that will endure.
You have an obligation to defend your book., as Cahn his. I have no stake in this, but to serve Jesus Christ, and to admonish you and our colleagues to end this charade. You are doing damage to yourselves by it, inasmuch as you are bearing false witness against your own brother in Christ, and are giving others less gracious than yourselves grist for the mill. It doesn’t end there, where is the time dedicated to share the Gospel with a fallen humanity. My gosh man, don’t you realize how much time this circular argument can go?
This is why I am returning to a thorough examination of your book, and I will publish my findings in due time, as the Lord wills. I am only very concerned over you and over others who are relentlessly engaged in this crusade.
Now may the Lord Himself bring to light and make evident to everyone what needs to be revealed pertaining to all of this, let the works become evident, and may God’s truth prevail.
I ask you a question brother, and please do take this the wrong way, but are you are ready to offer Jonathan Cahn a public apology if the day ever comes that you realize just how wrong you’ve been about him all along? If indeed you do discover that you’ve been wrong about him and his book all along?
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Faith G says:
October 9, 2012 at 1:12 pm
Dave,
Sorry to ask this of you but I can’t find the articles about Jonathan Cahn at WND that you are referencing. I must be tired, can’t get the Search feature to turn them up for me. Could you please send me a link?
Thanks,
Faith
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Dave James says:
October 9, 2012 at 1:24 pm
Of course, Tom McMahon and I have agreed that we will do whatever necessary and appropriate.
RE – others: As I note in my book, a number of godly men, who are strong Bible teachers and good theologians who read The Harbinger and came to identical conclusions BEFORE they heard any of my concerns.
I doubt there are many, if any, books on the market that went through the vetting process that mine did – three theological readers, three different editors and eight endorsers – all of whom are good students of the Word of God and committed believers. At any point in the process I would have stopped on the advice of any of them. Most of them have no dog in the fig
The evidence is completely in the open for anyone to look at both in my book and Rabbi Cahn’s. They both stand or fall on their own merits.
My work is extensively researched and documented with over 250 footnotes. All of my work is open for anyone to consider. The only difference is that I spent more time researching more deeply than most would on their own – which is the very reason why many books are written in the first place – as a service to others.
The Lord’s will be done.
THE PEPSTER REPLIES: David, your writing above reminds me of the following observation Jesus made of His critics, and I refer to it here, because it is so appropriate to the discussion – let the reader understand – where looking at His detractors and referring to them, He said, “How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?” A little grandstanding David? Tooting your horn a bit? Let time make everything evident, and allow the Lord to separate the works that will be burned up from those that will be saved. You understand I refer to works, not salvation here. (1Corinthians 3:12-15)
You and your colleagues sit on the seat of Moses, yet no one appointed you to it, and yet as you have appointed yourselves, you worship at the altar of human intellectualism and modern scholasticism in an age of skepticism, cynicism, and unbelief – all couched in a convenient theology that justifies it by denying God His very nature, His magnificent and miraculous attributes. We are reminded of what Paul writes in Romans 1:18-22, 28 where he says:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools. And just as they did not see fit ]to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind..
Now before you or your colleagues begin to accuse me of inferring that the critics of The Harbinger are without reasoning and depraved. I’m not saying that the critics of The Harbinger are depraved in their thinking, but I do believe there is evidence of a spiritual blindness – a religious cognitive dissonance – a disconnect with the message of The Harbinger and a hardening against it. It dovetails the same kind of reaction the ancient Israelites and their civil and religious leaders had towards God’s warning then. And you don’t see the connection, of course, thus your book, The Harbinger: Fact or Fiction? A clever invention you put a lot of work into.
And elsewhere we are warned by Paul: But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. (2Timothy 3:1-5)
Those who would deny God His very nature through Cessationism are holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power. They may not agree with that assessment, but this is precisely what they practice and believe, and it lies at the very core of the religious defiance we are witnessing. David, your’re not going to like this, but I must warn you – I must caution you; you are at the very epicenter of this religious defiance; your book is its intellectual foundation, and your colleagues are its avatars. You accuse Cahn of being on the wrong side of prophecy, but it is The Harbinger’s critics who are on the wrong side of prophecy, as they are fulfilling right before our eyes the same defiance Israel displayed two thousand five hundred years ago to God.
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Dave James says:
October 9, 2012 at 1:31 pm
Faith, here they are.
http://email.wnd.com/HM?a=ENX7CqoMtG4N8SA9MKJV-zDnGHxKLqglbfcStGb5lw8W0bBhOG5mpqVsje_Hhe-ud1IK
http://www.wnd.com/2012/10/get-radical-for-god-says-bestselling-author/
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janice says:
October 9, 2012 at 2:43 pm
Mr. James,
Mr. Cahn’s book was great as far as I am concerned. I recall that Jesus often spoke in parables or used contrasting examples to bring spiritual messages to the masses of people. It caused them to seek meaning, which was very much His way in dealing with people. For example, did He literally mean that people should eat and drink His blood? John 6:54 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life — that is, I will raise him up on the Last Day.
So what did Jesus mean by saying “eating His flesh and drinking His blood to gain eternal life”?
He’s using words to introduce a spiritual idea of the kingdom of heaven. Your argument with Mr. Cahn’s story falls short because you are battling words, instead of seeing the spiritual truths they convey. Mr. Cahn is using words to warn people of the impending judgment that we will receive, if we do not repent and turn to God. The same punishments the nation Israel received will be what we receive, as anyone who turns from God would. Your judgment of Mr. Cahn has made you blind to that simple truth. You’re fighting your own brother, my friend. Rather, you should be thankful that there are those that reach out to the masses. We don’t need an intellectual debate, we need to wake up and that is exactly what Mr. Cahn has helped people do. Once more, your battle is with intellectual ideas; Mr. Cahn is bringing Spiritual truth to life. Christians are supposed to have one foot on earth and one foot in heaven; you have both feet on the ground. – Janice
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Dave James says:
October 9, 2012 at 2:55 pm
Janice,
I appreciate your thoughts, but I think you have misunderstood my concerns.
I have been teaching and preaching on these spiritual issues for over 25 years – 16 of them as a missionary in Eastern Europe. I have seen the Lord do amazing things.
I don’t know if you have read my book (available in Kindle and paperback on Amazon.com), but I make it very clear that I agree completely with Rabbi Cahn’s assessment of the state of America and the need for repentance in the face of God’s impending judgment.
I am not battling just words, I am dealing with handling the Word of God correctly and presenting historical events accurately. How we go about doing the Lord’s work is extremely important – and it must be done his way with honesty and integrity. As I show in my book, much of The Harbinger is fabricated, an illusion – to the point that it becomes misleading in it’s attempt to prove that the author really is revealing an ancient mystery.
There is no mystery in the idea that God judges nations that set themselves against him and his people. What Cahn has done is not at all comparable to Jesus’ parables – because he says 90% of it is fact – which is not true of the parables. They are two completely different categories.
I have given my life to proclaiming spiritual truth since the Lord saved me almost 30 years ago. That is my highest priority.
Dave
Come on now David! You’re kidding right? “What Cahn has done is not at all comparable to Jesus’ parables? – because (as you say) he (meaning Rabbi Cahn) says 90% of it is fact – which Is not true of the parables? They are two completely different categories? I am amazed at your generalizations! Like your book, this seems to be the “thoroughness” of your approach towards Cahn’s book, The Harbinger. Cahn does not claim that his book is total fiction, but that he has used the venue of fiction, much as Christ has in His parables; to teach insights into truth and facts about a Biblical pattern that you and The Harbinger’s critics see as a figment of his imagination. Now whether you agree with that or not, it doesn’t matter because this is precisely what it is.
It is possible that a person who had devoted so much of his life to ministry can be error about something? Have you ever considered that? Please David, for your own sake, prayerfully before the Lord consider these warnings. No one questions your service to God. What is in question is the methods you employ in examining Cahn’s book. Guilt by innuendo? Guilt for the use of certain words that make you and the others in your camp uncomfortable because it doesn’t fit your theology?
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Faith G says:
October 9, 2012 at 3:47 pm
Thanks for the links, Dave.
One of the articles quotes Tommy Ice:
“How can anyone take a passage that is clearly addressed to Israel (Isa. 9:10) and one that has already been fulfilled in history for Israel and say that it also applies in some way to America? There is only a single meaning to any passage in the entire canon of Scripture.”
This seems to be THE central point in all the criticisms of The Harbinger and I’ve got to say it hit me as strange when I first encountered it and it still does. In fact it hits me as plain absurd. It hits me as a completely alien thought, a “hermeneutical” principle that I NEVER heard before this argument got going. It took a while before I recognized at least that it’s shared by a certain school of theology, which apparently includes you and all the endorsers of your book. I have to suppose that this accounts for why everyone you asked to read The Harbinger had exactly the same response to it that you had, although I wouldn’t necessarily have expected that to be the case simply based on a shared theology — I just don’t have another explanation for it.
And Dispensationalism seems to be the best blanket term for this school of thought, although maybe there’s a more accurate term, I don’t know.
I don’t keep up with all the theological schools but you’d think I’d have been aware of one with as much influence as this one apparently has. But I wasn’t. I’ve ALWAYS understood that the Old Testament is to be applied to us, to America, to our time, and that’s how I read The Harbinger and how I think others who have no problem with it read it.
From something you said a while back I gather you don’t think any of you are saying the OT can’t be applied to our time and yet over and over and over it SOUNDS like that, as in Ice’s statement above.
So there seems to be a theological divide here that is acres wide and I didn’t know about it until I got into all this. It may not account for ALL the objections to The Harbinger but it’s certainly THE major one among your circle of critics. It’s GOT to account for this huge gap between the two camps on either side of The Harbinger although it’s puzzling that that should be the case.
I’m not sure what I’m asking, but I want you to know just HOW puzzling this idea is to me and perhaps to others on my side of this issue. Perhaps you’ll have some insight?
“
THE PEPSTER WRITES: I wholeheartedly agree with Faith above. I have found Dispensational Theology a useful tool in the systematic organization of Biblical History for Bible Study, but have found it to be poor theology, inasmuch as it sets artificial theological boundaries over how God works, His nature, and Eschatology. Theologically I am not shackled by it or by Cessationism. I can understand how people tend to fall into one group or another. This is typical of us as human beings, but in Christ, the only boundary is what the Word of God teaches and we – that’s me, you, and everyone else on this list and beyond who walk with God as the ancients did by and through faith in the grace of God; must keep that Biblical standard and not deviate from it to the left or to the right in pursuit of well-developed man-made constructs. ________________________________________
Laura Haynes says:
October 9, 2012 at 3:55 pm
I agree that Rabbi Cahn has had many venues with which to get his message out but it’s not like Brannon is muzzled. He dedicates whole shows to bashing Rabbi Cahn and The Harbinger as well as anyone who even remotely supports him. If you don’t see this suggestion of Brannon’s – to place the opposing view in Jonathan’s OWN book – as over the top, well, that speaks for itself. Could you imagine Rabbi Cahn suggesting a place in YOUR BOOK? I’m not talking about rebuttals he may write or programs he goes on to refute what has been written and/or said about him as he has every right to defend himself (as do you on this post) but I’m talking about your ACTUAL book? And you don’t see this as being in the same vein as the “fairness doctrine?” Really? You said that all Brannon wants to do is get some equitable exposure in Cahn’s venue but isn’t that the same as what our government wants… to get exposure in OUR venue… to penetrate it? How is this different exactly? You don’t see the parallel? I hope others can see right through this. I mean, why would anyone, in their right mind, do that? That would be nothing less than unstable, double-mindedness and if he actually did that, I would have to question Rabbi Cahn’s sanity.
My jaw dropped to the floor when I heard Brannon make that statement so I couldn’t help but wonder who was controlling his thinking. All I know is that it is double-talk from the way he USED to talk and is very confusing. When you stated, “I don’t know exactly what you’re suggesting concerning the “spirit” controlling Brannon – but if you mean the obvious, then you’re venturing into a realm that is well beyond anything we have said concerning The Harbinger,” I had to agree – you have not said anything about this with regard to The Harbinger ITSELF but you sure have accused the author of promoting Jewish mysticism and, therefore, the occult. All of Chapter 17 in your book is dedicated to this but it is provably false. All you have to do is a little research of your own.
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Dave James says:
October 9, 2012 at 4:15 pm
Faith,
I agree – everything is almost always theological – and things tend to come in theological packages.
My general observation over the last 25-30 years that most people outside dispensationalism are only familiar with a caricature of dispensational theology, rather than interact with a dispensational theologian. The majority of evangelical schools across the U.S. – Bible institutes, Bible colleges, Bible universities and seminaries of the last 60-70 years have all been strongly dispensational. That has change somewhat over the last 15-20 years as Reformed Covenant theology has experienced a sort of renaissance.
Reduced to the most fundamental divide, it has to do with consistently understanding the Word of God literally, including the prophetic passages (while of course recognizing figures of speech, symbolism, etc.) – and that Israel and the Church are two distinct groups in God’s program. Many books have been written on this, so I’m not going to get into a defense of it here.
But, suffice it to say that:
1. Interpretation – we understand the New Testament in light of the Old Testament, rather than interpret the Old Testament using the New Testament.
2. Miracles – there are clear, identifiable periods of outbreaks of eras of miracles – but hundreds of years with no or few miracles is the overarching pattern. These would be the eras of Moses, Elijah and Elisha, Christ and the Apostles and Daniel’s 70th week, the Tribulation period.
3. God is still actively involved with His creation – in history and in individual lives – including miraculous intervention. God can and does do unexpected things completely outside the way things normally go.
4. The Old Testament is relevant and directly applicable in great detail in the life of every believer. However, some things are only indirectly applicable – which is why we no longer observe the dietary laws among many, many other things. There are many things about Isaiah 9 that can be understood and applied in every generation. There are also specific things that were specifically and exclusively to Israel – everyone agrees with that, as well – including the supporters of The Harbinger (America will not be attacked by Rezin). So, the difference is consistently handling the Word of God from Genesis through Revelation.
Because things come in theological packages, and because as time goes by the outworking of those packages results in wider gulfs as people become more deeply entrenched in their positions – whether they be in the Reformed camp or the Word-Faith camp.
However, this isn’t the only answer, because there are dispensationalists, Reformed and Charismatics on both sides of this discussion.
I understand the problems – we’re coming at this with a different hermeneutic and theological framework. I believe that mine is the most consistent and you believe yours is. Some agree with me – some agree with you.
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Dave James says:
October 9, 2012 at 4:24 pm
Laura,
Please try to lighten up a little. Brannon’s statement was tongue-in-cheek as much as anything. No one seriously believes that would happen – as you yourself say.
I think there is a more than a little over-the-top reaction going on here.
Everything is in the public market place – and there are plenty of venues on both sides. Cahn owes Brannon nothing and Brannon owes him nothing more than he has been given.
Beyond that, I have seen some of the correspondence and Cahn has attempted to use spiritual strong-arm, guilt-trip tactics to try to force his way onto more than one show. He has not done himself any favors by choosing that particular approach. No one who is thinking clearly would allow him to impose himself into these forums. It is unfortunate.
BTW – I did do the research which is why chapter 17 is in my book in the first place – and it is well-documented. Fortunately, I downloaded that video before Cahn had it pulled from YouTube.
THE PEPSTER ASKS:
Dear David,
What was the name of the CD Rabbi Cahn pulled from his website? I might have that teaching and would like to reexamine it. Also, can you be more specific for your readers when you wrote above: “Cahn has attempted to use spiritual strong-arm, guilt-trip tactics to try to force his way onto more than one show. He has not done himself any favors by choosing that particular approach. No one who is thinking clearly would allow him to impose himself into these forums. It is unfortunate.”
I will personally verify this with him. You’ve also written that I was wrong in charging you with rushing to get your book published before you had first given Cahn the opportunity to address your concerns. I’ve got the exact date of Brannon Howse’s interview of Jimmy DeYoung where they both discussed The Harbinger, and according to Dr. DeYoung in that interview, you had not yet published your book, but were at work on it. I have the transcript of an interview and it is posted on The Pepster’s Post: a Voice in Cyberspace, where you can read it in its entirety. It speaks volumes. Again, call it Exhibit A. Your book and the Internet postings provide the rest. The interview took place back in March of 2012.
Now you’ve written the following in an earlier reply: “I have personally spoken with Jonathan Cahn and exchanged emails with him. I have spent hundreds of hours in research and writing – extensively documenting and supporting every statement I make – with many quotes coming directly from The Harbinger.”
David, no one is faulting you on your research or questioning how thorough you have been in it. Anyone who reads your book realizes how much you’ve put into it. So, let’s get that straight, and let it go here. This is not what is in question, what is in question is the premise and the conclusions you’ve reached regarding Cahn’s book.
Let’s be clear about this. I question the premise of your investigation, I question the metric you use (you’ll make the claim that it is the Biblical metric, nothing personal against you, but I cannot make that assumption – the Biblical metric is not in question here, your use of it is, just as you question Cahn’s), I question the conclusions you reach, and as I read and examine your book, they’re glaring. May I assume here that Jimmy DeYoung, Brannon Howse, Tom A. McMahon, Eric Douma, etc., have all read your book? It eludes me why they miss it also.
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Laura Haynes says:
October 9, 2012 at 4:42 pm
Dave,
Lighten up – that’s usually what one says when he’s been had and knows it. I’m sorry, Dave, but this is too serious for me to “lighten up.”
Anyway, I think EVERYONE should see that video – The Zohar Speaks – and I hope Rabbi Cahn posts it back up the way it was and compare it with what’s in your book on page 197. Last I checked, you can still view the video the way it was on Berit Kjos’ website so, by all means go there and check it out. Your readers will see that you didn’t quote Jonathan fully at the end and it’s very clear when you listen to it as it changed the whole meaning. And this coming from someone who criticized Jonathan for not quoting the rest of Tom Daschle’s speech which changed NONE of the meaning.
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Dave James says:
October 9, 2012 at 5:11 pm
I had not left the end of the quote off intentionally or for any reason.
So, after you brought it up I sent the change to the editor and it should be in the current edition of my book.
You’re reading way too much into this – because it doesn’t change the meaning at all. If there had been a chance it would have changed the meaning I would have included it to avoid exactly the charge you’re making. And I did this over and over throughout the book in order to be as fair as possible. If I missed three words that had the potential to gave the wrong impression out of over 200 pages, I think that is very good.
The Lord knows my heart and it was never to stack the deck – but you’re free to believe what you will.
Beyond that, I also added the point prior to the quote to indicate that he was using it as a “hostile witness.” It didn’t require me adding anything else because it just didn’t change the meaning. And, in fact, I agree that using a hostile witness is an effective apologetic tool. That is not my concern in the least.
Unfortunately, you appear to be reading nefarious motives into what I have done, even though I have really done everything I can to demonstrate that I’m acting in good faith. At least until you decided to change posture and go on the attack rather than simply asking a couple of questions which would have cleared up everything. At that point, I simply didn’t respond.
I think the fact that I allow your posts to come through at least demonstrates that I’m trying to be fair and honest.
And I agree completely – everyone should see that video – as well as a number of others.
THE PEPSTER WROTE:
Dear David,
Laura Haynes is to be commended. She is a courageous lady. She is correct in what she wrote above your reply and mine here to yours. In another post, we’ve discussed why your criticism of Cahn’s use of extra-Biblical writings such as the Talmud, the Zohar, therefore I won’t rehash what we discussed there. Your readers and mine can go to the post and read it for themselves.
This is one of several examples where you put into Cahn’s writing much more than what he wrote. You load your book with such charges, and by the time one’s read a couple of chapters, one gets the feeling that you’ve written nothing more than a book loaded with religious polemic over semantics and a complete misunderstanding of Cahn’s use of the words “mystery,” “secret” and your own personal aversion to these words because of your own personal theology that denies the existence of these in this day and age unless, as Eric Douma charges, “through divination,” because God does not reveal secrets anymore. He stopped doing that when the cannon of Scripture was closed. Amazing teaching. Truly amazing.
And of course, those who believe and teach such nonsense set the bar as to when and how and by whom the prophetic will reemerge on the world scene just prior to the end, right? How convenient. No wonder people look at us and think God is dead, and see our Scriptures as ancient fables. The dead scholasticism of our seminaries and much of liberal theology has seen to that.
When I first got saved David, I sought to know why some Christians held this belief. I read as much on it as I could, because quite frankly, the Bible I read did not teach it. In fact, the more arguments I heard and read about this, the more convinced I became that the God we serve is the Living God who is unchangeable in all His ways, who has pardoned iniquity since the days when men began to call upon the name of the Lord (Genesis 4:26) – even before that era, since He was kind to Cain who slew his brother Abel (Genesis 4:8b), though He did not leave him unpunished for his sin (Genesis 4:9-16), and we know as Paul says, that “He made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation, that they should seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist.” (Acts 17:26-27)
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Cherie says:
October 7, 2012 at 12:15 am
When I see posts such as those here, I wonder why all the fuss. I hear my husband complain about the kids, politicians, society, work, me and then it hits me. Sin and lack of knowledge. Prov. 14:12, but also to those claiming to know God, 2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. and Dave you know 2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
At times I want to tell you not to bother. But I know that you must continue on as you know you should no matter what attacks may come your way. I pray for you because I see what is happening, but also rejoice because the Glory be to God for your work. We both will pray that those who scoff and attack repent and allow God’s truth to renew their mind before He lends them over to a reprobate mind. Which I am beginning to think I am seeing day by day. How can anyone who claims to know God and have a relationship with Jesus act and speak contrary to His Word? I know no one wants to say whether someone is saved or not, but we must compare what they say and do to what the Word of God says a saved person does and says.
I may be alone in my thinking, but I believe two things about The Harbinger book. One – it was written to distract us from God’s truth, and second – God will use it to lend those who don’t want to obey His Word over to a reprobate mind and eventual judgment.
There is a commentary called The Creeping Darkness that I can really relate to about the world we live in today. I too have felt extreme sadness about those in the faith, and those who are not but claim to be. I also pity this world.
When I see things like the attacks you are enduring, and even the things that happen in my own household, I remember that Sin and satan are behind this fully knowing under the sovereignty of God.
Remember Dave, Jesus said in Luke 6:22
Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake.
I thank you for enduring all this so that your brethren will not fall due to false teachers and doctrine. When it is really tough for you, please remember your brothers and sisters in Christ who pray for you and love you with the love of Christ. Your ministry is not an easy one, but it is Blessed. God’s blessings to you and your family.
Cherie C.
________________________________________THE PEPSTER’S REPLY TO CHERRIE: Please do not take what I write to you personally. You are my sister in Christ, yes, we are part of the same spiritual family you and I. By God’s grace we will meet some day in heaven. Right now you might think that you’ll try to be at the far side of heaven to avoid me, but I doubt it; I get around. (smiles) We disagree on Dr. James’ book; you think the world of it, and I see it as a theological hardening of defiance to a voice crying in these perilous times. Again, everyone is entitled to their opinion; you are entitled to yours and I to mine.
Having said that, I must address what you have written above, and please excuse my change of tone, but I am concerned. I will first quote what you have written and will follow up with a question, and knowing David James for being fair (I am not being disingenuous here; I believe he , like all men, is fair to a point – everyone has their limitations. You have any questions about that? Remember the words of David when he said, “I am in great distress; please let me fall into the hand of the Lord, for His mercies are very great. But do not let me fall into the hand of man.” (1Chronicles 21:13). This was in response to Gad’s message from the Lord that gave him three choices as to how God would exact His judgment for David’s disobedience when he numbered Israel (1Chronicles 21:1-6). Therefore in this situation, I would say that we all have our limitations, whereas with God, His ways are unfathomable, and His truth indisputable. This is why I write as I do here about fairness. A man, or a woman for that matter, has his limits, and we are all limited in our gifts and capacities, and for this reason God has used even this the diversity of His gifts which He has in His manifold grace bestowed upon His body. (1Corinthians 12-13)
Cherie, stop for a moment dear sister, and please take note of what you have written. Let me quote here: “We both will pray that those who scoff and attack repent and allow God’s truth to renew their mind before He lends them over to a reprobate mind. Which I am beginning to think I am seeing day by day. How can anyone who claims to know God and have a relationship with Jesus act and speak contrary to His Word? I know no one wants to say whether someone is saved or not, but we must compare what they say and do to what the Word of God says a saved person does and says”
Are you aware of what you just wrote posted by David on his website for all to see? And of whom are you do you refer? Who is speaking contrary to His Word? Do you realize that you have placed yourself and of course David James by direct inference above anyone who has a genuine disagreement about two books? The Harbinger and The Harbinger: Fact or Fiction? We are not disagreeing on the fundamentals of our faith here, we are disagreeing over semantics and how it is being employed by these two writers. Therein lies the rub; it is much to do about nothing, and Dr. James has written a book completely over a simple disagreement over semantics and his acute unease with them due to his interpretation of them.
David James is correct in saying that there are Christians of all denominations, some from the same religious backgrounds, who disagree on this one issue – The Harbinger and its message to this nation and what it is all about. There is great deception at work here, and it is spiritual, because we have sincere, honest, Bible-believing Christians who disagree over a passage of Scripture and its application. This is spiritual, and there is an acute religious cognitive dissonance at play. This is not natural. The deception is so great that a good many of the elect are being taken in by it. Again, because the deception is coming from a longtime trusted source of Apologetics. Now what do I mean by this? Let me explain before I am misunderstood. The critics of The Harbinger did not wake up one day and decided, “We’re going to write about a book and its author to deceive the Christian reading public about its contents.” Of course not.
I would be the first to affirm that this is not what David James and other critics of The Harbinger are doing, and I will do so for as long as this goes on. Why do I say this? , you might ask; because I believe in the sincerity of those who involved. Their zeal for the Word is commendable. That is not what is in question here, and this is why the deception is not there. The deception is great, because it lies within a false witness against Rabbi Cahn, based upon a false premise, built upon a personal aversion to semantics – the use of the word “mystery,” the use of the word “secret,” the use of the word “prophetic,” and other such words to which Dr. James has devoted an entire book.
I disagree. Additionally, I do not hate anyone, and your next accusation directed at those who disagree with Dr. James is unwarranted and presumptuous. How can you write? “When I see things like the attacks you are enduring, and even the things that happen in my own household, I remember that Sin and satan are behind this fully knowing under the sovereignty of God. Remember Dave, Jesus said in Luke 6:22 ‘Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake. I thank you for enduring all this so that your brethren will not fall due to false teachers and doctrine. When it is really tough for you, please remember your brothers and sisters in Christ who pray for you and love you with the love of Christ. Your ministry is not an easy one, but it is Blessed. God’s blessings to you and your family.’”
My dear lady, do you realize what you are implying here? And I would ask you David why you have not lovingly pointed this out, but instead have hidden behind this, even writing the following in reply as though you were being persecuted:
Dave James says:
October 7, 2012 at 12:25 am
Thank you for the encouragement.
By God’s grace I determined that I would not take any attacks about this personally.
I consider each one for whatever merit it might have and whether the Lord would want me to learn something through the criticisms.
I am continually evaluating my position and my arguments to make sure I’m not the one who is missing the truth.
Whenever I go back and read what I have written and revisit the problems with The Harbinger, I remained persuaded in my heart that I have stood for the truth on this.
That is all I can do – along with being very careful to respond correctly, without malice and with grace.
Dave
THE PEPSTER REPLIES: David; you’re not a martyr; no one is attacking you, so please brother, let’s be real here. You’re not being persecuted David; it was you who first targeted Jonathan Cahn and his book The Harbinger for scrutiny followed by criticism – you’ve made Jonathan Cahn the focus of an entire book. You’re not fooling me about this, and this is why I am calling you and your colleagues out on this. Jonathan Cahn didn’t write a book about you, but you did write a book about his. He is not persecuting you, you are persecuting him. Let the people be discerning here and let them judge for themselves who is really the persecutor/s. Let the evidence speak for itself. Jonathan Cahn doesn’t go around talking about you or any of your colleagues – watch the interviews – it’s all there.
But Brannon Howse, Jimmy DeYoung, Ken Silva, and a growing entourage of Cessationist/Dispensationists have filled the airwaves and the Internet with articles targeting Cahn for marginalization and attack. I do not mince words sir, yes; attack. Let the people see and judge for themselves. Let them bear witness to who is attacking whom. The evidence is there if they can lift the veil of deception the enemy has laid over the eyes of many.
Cahn is the least concerned about what you say, but he does want the opportunity to quietly address what you’ve written in your book. Wherever he travels and is interviewed, he has not once mentioned either you or any of your colleagues or your organizations, whereas there barely passes a day where either one or more of your colleagues and yourself speak of him, always in the same manner – what I recognize and discern as a systematic campaign of marginalization and discreditation.
Remember, you and your colleagues have targeted him. He has done you no wrong. Why did you feel you had to write a book about his book? I know why I am writing mine – the charges you’ve made in your book must be addressed. They cannot go unanswered, and they must be addressed Biblically and as fair as possible. Were this the Inquisition, you would be the inquisitors of a good many Christians with whom you have doctrinal disagreements.
Additionally, I am saddened to learn that Christ Pinto is now in your camp. I recall that in January 5th of this year, he reviewed The Harbinger, and his assessment of it was well-balanced and objective. He affirmed Jonathan Cahn’s faith as a Born Again Christian, and described accurately the history and development of America beginning with the Puritan Fathers, through the American Revolution, describing the nation’s progressive spiritual decline in detail. To hear that he is now had a difference of opinion on The Harbinger is saddening. I guess it would be only a matter of time before he would be converted in his thinking. I have a lot of respect for him. This is a great loss in my estimation. A great loss. If there was an objective voice in your camp, one that was balanced, it was his.
David, your inquisition against Jonathan Cahn and The Harbinger does not bode well for you and for your colleagues. You are bearing false witness against him. It’s wrong. What you are doing is wrong. Your book speaks for itself. In it, you have immortalized your own words and therefore what you have written and published about The Harbinger and Jonathan Cahn is its own witness either in support of you or against you. The day will decide, and the Lord is making it evident. In due time.________________________________________
julie says:
October 7, 2012 at 9:31 pm
Dave, what do you think of the person who says that this book is only fiction and can be enjoyed merely as a fiction book? For instance, it is similar in type as the Left Behind series of books. A combo of some fact, some prophecy and some fiction.
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Dave James says:
October 7, 2012 at 9:41 pm
In comparison the Left Behind series, it’s in a completely different category.
The Left Behind series is fiction, using a biblical framework.
The Harbinger is fact (according to the author), using a fictional framework.
This results in a significant difference.
In my book (Fact or Fiction), I deal with the entire book in great detail – and was written to put into the hands of someone who thinks The Harbinger is a good book – it’s not.
I also wrote it such that someone does not have to have read The Harbinger first as I quote it extensively and try to be fair to the author by giving plenty of context.
Hope this helps.
THE PEPSTER’S REPLY:
Dear David,
I do not recommend the Left Behind series, not because it presents the End Times in a fictional motif, but because in many places it presents specific Eschatological beliefs I believe the Scriptures do not support, but appears to have taken hold of a good portion of modern Evangelical Christianity in the United States. Would I tell anyone not to buy the series of books. No, but I would caution them to examine what they read to the Scriptures for themselves. With regards to The Harbinger let every believer judge for themselves, and let them be completely convinced in their own mind.
With all due respect, they do not need to read your book to get themselves prejudiced about a book they haven’t read, or be swayed by you and your colleagues because you and they hail from an organization that has for years been well respected and beloved among the Protestant Evangelical Community. Therein lies the deception, because you and your colleagues and your organizations (TBC, and AM, and the others) are trusted, and because your trusted by so many, this broadside against Cahn and his book is nothing short than the proverbial Trojan Horse within the unsuspecting Body of Christ.
Personally, I am of the opinion that this is part of the hardening and defiance from within Christian religious circles that must take place before the great collapse. You and I are at opposite ends of this controversy, and I give you my word, that I will strive to serve the Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity and in truth, just as I believe you will too. I came out of an occult background – I dabbled in Spiritualism before I was a Christian, and became involved in what is know as Santeria – an Afro-Cuban religion predominant in Caribbean Basin nations. . I saw demon possessed people at séances conducted in the homes of the practitioners.
So you will understand that wherever I hear or see the doctrines of the occult mystics taught, my wife and I flee. I can tell you with full assurance that as I have done before, Jonathan Cahn is not a mystic, nor does he dabble in the Occult. He does not teach or support teaching Gnosticism, the Kabbalah, or Free Masonry. Were he ever to advocate any of these teachings, he or anyone else; I would go somewhere else. He does not. I bear witness before the Lord (who knows the hearts of men, and their sincerity) that Jonathan Cahn is nothing of what many of his most rabid critics have accused him of being.
Do I have your written permission here to quote from our book at length? Can you write me a letter to that affect? I will need to do this to effectively address point by point every statement you have written in The Harbinger: Fact or Fiction? This is the only manner that I can see that the reader will be allowed to compare The Harbinger, The Harbinger: Fact or Fiction? and a thorough analysis of both. Understand, I will also include every written and spoken assertions made against The Harbinger and allow the reader s to judge for themselves the accuracy of the claims. I too have spent untold hours researching both what Rabbi Cahn has written, the documentary put out by WND, your book, and every posting on The Harbinger from both sides of the theological spectrum, and it may surprise you, one or two in between.
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